tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post1376332494974575049..comments2024-02-07T23:25:07.429-06:00Comments on Bell Beaker Blogger: Beginning of Something?bellbeakerbloggerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-43946362926247099142015-10-12T03:18:42.083-05:002015-10-12T03:18:42.083-05:00Well, that's interesting if it can be confirme...Well, that's interesting if it can be confirmed to be a generic pattern. However I'd like a good general assessment of the cultural continuity issue, preferably a scholarly one. AFAIK, Megalithic building in Britain never stopped (see: http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2009/12/demographics-of-british-neolithic-2.html) and, if anything, it had a peculiar peak (not justified by other indicators of demographic density) precisely in the Bell Beaker period. But this is a very rough assessment (which I never found questioned before, even if I share apartment with an English prehistory blogger and have extensively discussed British Megalithism with locals in specialized forums), so if there are good materials that support your view, I'd like to read them in order to expand my understanding, of course.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-48004295640054485942015-10-11T17:11:44.215-05:002015-10-11T17:11:44.215-05:00Thanks for the reply - we perhaps aren't as fa...Thanks for the reply - we perhaps aren't as far apart in our thinking as I thought at first. On the Beaker reuse of megalithic and non-megalithic monumental burial sites in Britain though I do want the stress that this is not evidence of continuity. There are several Early Neolithic long barrows (either with timber or stone chanbers) where the last burials in their original phase of use occur c. 3600 BC; there are then no burials there at all for over 1000 years until the Beaker period, when inhumation burials occur in graves cut into the mounds. That is perhaps one of the most interesting features of Beaker burial practice, as it could be interpreted as a false claim to continuity. <br />Sorry if having removed the earlier comment causes any confusion - I accidentally posted it before completing it.Nick Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03936982799680681315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-29448384946660275342015-10-11T17:09:57.604-05:002015-10-11T17:09:57.604-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Nick Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03936982799680681315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-91282322330313737512015-10-11T08:06:25.710-05:002015-10-11T08:06:25.710-05:00Anyhow it's clearly a matter meriting a deep a...Anyhow it's clearly a matter meriting a deep analysis and I'd be glad if our host, BBB, would some day discuss this issue in depth. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-24366053786648643852015-10-11T08:05:16.977-05:002015-10-11T08:05:16.977-05:00There are changes overlapping BB? Yes. Are these s...There are changes overlapping BB? Yes. Are these some sort of "BB culture"? Nope. Only in the Eastern Province BB shows patterns that are distinct from non BB groups, and only there BB influence can be considered dominant. Elsewhere BB is related to stuff that happens but that is not BB: cremation is not BB (nor Kurgan nor either a simple continuity of previous local practices), reuse of dolmen burials indicates continuity with the previous culture (just as in the South, but in contrast to Scandinavia or Central Europe, where dolmens are abandoned "overnight" with Corded Ware). <br /><br />"... the general adoption of single burial with pottery under round barrows does represent a radical change".<br /><br />It could be... IF that is an extended practice and can be associated with a general cultural change. We see similar changes (decline in megalithism, gradual increase of individual burials) in France and other areas anyhow but my impression is that they represent a sociological trend where, gradually, old customs are lost, maybe because of weakening of clannic or tribal loyalties and an increase of "individualism", not a sudden or abrupt change, rather a gradual change in fashions that anyhow cannot be tracked to any external origin. <br /><br />So I'd agree that there is more cosmopolitanism, more individualism, and a gradual loss of Megalithic traditions that happens not just in Britain but in fact everywhere west of the Rhine, albeit at locally different rhythms. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-24285046396323920492015-10-10T12:00:53.083-05:002015-10-10T12:00:53.083-05:00P.S. It has also become apparent that the most com...P.S. It has also become apparent that the most common method of body treatment in early third millennium BC Britain was cremation, which represents a significant change from Earlier Neolithic burial practices (including in megalithic tombs), so the reversion to inhumation burial in the Beaker period (Copper Age) is a fairly radical one.Nick Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03936982799680681315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-71108734522756647082015-10-10T11:39:48.994-05:002015-10-10T11:39:48.994-05:00"Just minor stuff" - I know you aren'..."Just minor stuff" - I know you aren't an archaeologist, but even so that is a strange misconception. Even a passing familiarity with the evidence and the literature would show that the essence of the Beaker debate within Britain is the radical change in the degree of contact with the continent. <br /><br />The appearance of Beakers and copper, the reuse of Earlier Neolithic monuments, the general cessation of building henges and cursuses, the general adoption of single burial with pottery under round barrows does represent a radical change. <br /><br />No-one familiar with the archaeology of Neolithic-Bronze Age Britain thinks in terms of a "British Megalithic society" in which "pre-Beaker and post-Beaker Britain is pretty much the same culture".Nick Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03936982799680681315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-82462964783992883552015-10-10T08:29:31.481-05:002015-10-10T08:29:31.481-05:00"Contact"? Sure, what you say, Nick, is ..."Contact"? Sure, what you say, Nick, is (roughly) right but it is not "key" because it does not talk of mass migrations nor of radical cultural changes, just minor stuff. You seem to be willing to hype what is a side issue, I focus on the major stuff instead.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-84426417501491430782015-10-10T07:41:23.232-05:002015-10-10T07:41:23.232-05:00Maju's thinking that "the pre-Beaker and ...Maju's thinking that "the pre-Beaker and post-Beaker Britain is pretty much the same culture" could hardly be more mistaken. The key thing about pre-Beaker Britain after c. 3000 BC is the lack of contact with continental Europe, e.g. very different pottery types, lack of imports (e.g. copper and amber), completely different monuments (e.g. henges and cursuses), very little sign of formal burial practices (e.g. only perhaps a dozen round barrows from this period).<br /><br />Calling this pre-Beaker period (the Later Neolithic) megalithic Britain is utterly misleading, as there is very little megalithic construction and very little use of megalithic tombs at this time.<br /><br />All this changes with the Beaker period - although that in itself does not require large-scale population movements.Nick Thttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03936982799680681315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-19950778113850011292015-10-09T04:43:14.885-05:002015-10-09T04:43:14.885-05:00@Anon: attributing "technological innovations...@Anon: attributing "technological innovations" to any specific lineage, is almost certainly wrong. Innovations are at least often enough transmitted by mere contact. Or also lineages can go in groups and then, for whatever accident (that we cannot explain in full detail because we the records do not exist) one of them experiences a so-called "founder effect" and succeeds in an area that his/her companions had ignored or failed at previously. <br /><br />Also your chrononologies are absolutely arbitrary. We don't "know" anything like what you claim.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-53236037208299005492015-10-08T22:48:43.336-05:002015-10-08T22:48:43.336-05:00R1b came from the East. Over time it brought a num...R1b came from the East. Over time it brought a number of technological innovations and cultural/metal features that resulted in the spread of Indo-European languages and present mix of male and female haplotypes in Europe. This as an overall story seems strongly supported by genetic, linguistic, and archeological evidence. I don't think any single story around the Basques, the Celts, etc. will change the larger picture much. In other words we know the start of the story ca. 3,500 BC and ending in 2,000 BC. While some chapters remain sparse, they don't change the plot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-18862101595753642015-10-07T10:36:19.828-05:002015-10-07T10:36:19.828-05:00Yep. I totally agree; even as late as in 1200 the ...Yep. I totally agree; even as late as in 1200 the navigation from the British isles to the Mediterranean went through coastal routes (cf. "De Viis Maris", http://www.arkeotavira.com/Estudos/Cronicas/De-viis-maris-HispaniaR.pdf). Still, it appear that during the late Bronze, and maybe at times before that, there was a direct way: http://anuariobrigantino.betanzos.net/Ab2010PDF/2010%20027_056%20CANO%20%20y%20BRAGE%20_LANGOSTEIRA.pdf.<br /><br />RegardsCossuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00504867599625947101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-38431793424176200052015-10-06T19:57:37.173-05:002015-10-06T19:57:37.173-05:00The materials are all quite interesting, thank you...The materials are all quite interesting, thank you. However I get the impression that the Atlantic connections rather belong to the Bronze Age, or at least they are more clear than in the Late Chalcolithic (Bell Beaker) period. It is in the Atlantic Bronze Age when the Iberia - Britain (and Ireland) interactions are much more marked in all aspects. It is also a more plausible period for direct open ocean navigation between Galicia and Cornwall, as suggested in the Cunliffe map. Notice anyhow that alternative cabotage routes along the Bay of Biscay's coasts are also marked and, for the little I know about ancient navigation, these were used for sure, even if only because some seasons (winter particularly) were much worse for open seas sailing. Said all this, it does not mean that some of those interactions did not happen already in the Chalcolithic: they probably did. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-45534864643039009262015-10-06T16:02:31.421-05:002015-10-06T16:02:31.421-05:00"In Iberia they are present in between the Ta..."In Iberia they are present in between the Tagus and Ebro rivers, in the Atlantic coast and in the Central plateau;" should be read as "in the NW quarter of the Iberian peninsula, but not particularly in the coastal areas in and beyond modern day Cantabria, nor north and east of the Ebro."<br /><br />Regards.Cossuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00504867599625947101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-17739491987546345792015-10-06T15:56:38.269-05:002015-10-06T15:56:38.269-05:00Unrelated, but referring to what I said about late...Unrelated, but referring to what I said about late Atlantic Bronze Age, Cunliffe presents a map in p. 255 of aforementioned work, with the distribution of roasting spits, flesh hooks and cauldrons in western Europe. In Iberia they are present in between the Tagus and Ebro rivers, in the Atlantic coast and in the Central plateau; in France, in between the Seine and Garonne. And then, in Ireland, and in southern England. Apparently, no finds in between the Ebro and Garonne. Wow.Cossuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00504867599625947101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-78499361280805969562015-10-06T15:27:03.449-05:002015-10-06T15:27:03.449-05:00@Maju
"I would really like to have...it's...@Maju<br />"I would really like to have...it's like the research is all fragmented" <br />I totally agree! And because of this fragmentation, it's no easy matter to judge what's going on.<br /><br />Best book (to show a general view of prehistoric Europe) I have at hand now it's Barry Cunliffe's (er, Barry's Cunliffe?) "Europe between de Oceans. 9000 BC - AD 1000". In p. 204 he includes a map based on Maritime Bell Beaker, and he really draws two way maritime routes from/to Estremadura/Central Portugal - Brittany, seaway that passed through Galicia: "The initial spread of Maritime bell beaker took place along the Atlantic seaways in the middle centuries of the third millennium, using the well established routes between the Tagus and Morbihan/Loire estuary regions that have been in operation at least since the initial spread of the megalithic passage graves two millennia previously." Sadly, he's not that clear about corded beakers, but he affirms that beaker people that came into the British isles were the result of the interaction of Maritime beakers and Corded Ware, first in the Rhin, latter in "northern France".<br /><br />Referring the paper of José Suárez Otero, he clearly states that in Galicia Maritime _precedes_, then _it's older_, than AOC and associated cultural manifestations. So AOC is locally -and I guess he also thinks that the same is true globally- later than Maritime. Now, I can't put my hand in the fire for him, but maybe some pieces have been reclassified in the last 25 years. Anyway, in his map I see points in Catalonia, in Castelló, in Euskadi and Nafarroa, in Cantabria... That's not that different of what Pellicer wrote.<br /><br />Of course, I guess corded beakers in Galicia could have came from the East, but there appears to be a direct seaway Galicia - Brittany - Brittish isles (http://www.csarmento.uminho.pt/docs/ndat/rg/RGVE1999_005.pdf), and there are a number of archaeological and cultural manifestations that are present in Galicia and Brittany and the Isles, but not -to the same extend, and as long as I know- in the Pyrenees, as for example, gapped cup and ring marks, or the Late Atlantic Bronze Age complex: <br />http://digital.csic.es/bitstream/10261/11655/1/1995_Proceedings%20Prehistoric%20Society%2061_BradleyCriadoFabregas_Rock%20art%20Galicia.pdf<br />http://montetecla.blogspot.com.es/<br />http://beacomendador.webs.uvigo.es/index_archivos/2010_UISPP.pdf<br />Maybe we can add here the 7% of R1b M529 among Galician males vs. 2-3% in Basques. <br /><br />Anyway, in https://www.academia.edu/5952632/Current_researches_on_Bell_Beakers, Bello Diéguez affirms with respect to the beaker finds in the dolmen de Dombate: "It is important to note that the pottery found on this site is truly exceptional, and that all of its features point towards an intense relationship between Galicia and the Atlantic coast towards Brittany".<br /><br />Regards.<br />Cossuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00504867599625947101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-38460842404553923742015-10-06T13:50:21.432-05:002015-10-06T13:50:21.432-05:00I would really like to have for these discussions ...I would really like to have for these discussions a good all-Europe map or map series of styles and chronologies within the Bell Beaker phenomenon. It would help a lot but it seems impossible to find anything like that, at least not online: it's like the research is all fragmented.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-50108684158161321112015-10-06T13:22:43.506-05:002015-10-06T13:22:43.506-05:00I quote from a 1989 University manual (this chapte...I quote from a 1989 University manual (this chapter signed by Manuel Pellicer): <br /><br /><i>... el Campaniforme cordado (...) ampliamente documentada en Bohemia, Rin, Ródano, Languedoc y Rosellón y, dentro de la Península, en Cataluña, Levante, Aragón, Vasconia, Alto Ebro y Badajoz</i>.<br /><br />So, at least according to Pellicer, AOC existed not in Estremadura (my poor memory?) but certainly in all the Eastern coasts and Ebro Valley, as well as some other locations, something that is not reflected in their map. I don't think there is any difference between "AOC" and "corded" style: they are clearly synonyms.<br /><br /><a href="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Beaker_culture_diffusion.svg/2000px-Beaker_culture_diffusion.svg.png" rel="nofollow">This Wikimedia map</a> does suggest a two phases model: first Maritime, then reflux but that would make the corded ware not older but more recent. I don't think this is correct either (but prove me wrong). <br /><br />I wonder if the corded style spread from the SE of France in fact, maybe after some sort of intrusive IE influence (considered apparently as possible by Lemercier, because "the way they were realised squares with specific technical traditions"). If so the AOC beakers of Galicia might have arrived from the Basque or Western French area via the Bay of Biscay within the context of the SW province. Of course relations with the Western province (islands, Rhine basin) are perfectly possible but since your reference is ignoring all the AOC area in NE Iberia, I'm thinking he may be missing something important.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-72945929575299016782015-10-06T09:27:08.959-05:002015-10-06T09:27:08.959-05:00A. M. S. Bettencout, author of one of the papers o...A. M. S. Bettencout, author of one of the papers of the first link, wrote: <br /><br />"Corded bell beaker vases are very rare in the Iberian Peninsula and only known in three Portuguese sites besides this one. We refer to the “settlement” or enclosure of Porto Torrão, Ferreira do Alentejo, in the Southwest, inside a Chalcolithic level dated to the 1st quarter of the 3rd millennium BC; to the walled enclosure of the Castelo Velho de Freixo de Numão, Vila Nova de Foz Côa, in a range of use from the beginning to the third quarter of the 3rd millennium BC and the walled enclosure of Castanheiro do Vento, Vila Nova de Foz Côa, probably from the Chalcolithic context. And finally, the fragment found is very similar to the one discussed here, therefore, it can be included in the “Herringbone variety”"<br /><br />So, I think that they use AOC in a more restricted, continental meaning, since they say nothing about Estremadura.<br /><br />RegardsCossuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00504867599625947101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-31284403442344850792015-10-06T08:42:40.261-05:002015-10-06T08:42:40.261-05:00@Maju
Yes, don't now. But a network is usually...@Maju<br />Yes, don't now. But a network is usually travelled in multiple directions, so why not. Now, for the last paper, I <i>think</i> that the author clearly thinks that Beaker evolved initially south, but he also thinks that AOC in Galicia, together with "rusticated ware" and "Fischgrattenkeramic", have arrived from the North -by sea- as a ceramic complex, at a latter time.<br /><br />Cheers.Cossuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00504867599625947101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-91761385102378617872015-10-06T06:11:43.703-05:002015-10-06T06:11:43.703-05:00Lemércier et al. argued recently for a synchrony o...<a href="http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/12/rhone-provence-bell-beaker.html" rel="nofollow">Lemércier et al.</a> argued recently for a synchrony of corded and international style formation in SE France. I believe (but can't find it) that the same has been argued at some point in this blog regarding Iberia. They also argued for continuity between pre-Beaker and Beaker-using populations, as is apparent in all non-IE regions. <br /><br />Of course one can imagine that the corded style is inspired by Corded Ware but my impression is that, if there is any relation at all, this one is very thin. Corded Ware pottery is anything but "all over corded" (mostly the corded decoration is restricted to the lid area) and there are cases of corded decoration that are definitely unrelated, such as certain Neolithic culture of SE China which is also known as "corded ware". <br /><br />If we join the dots, AOC style almost certainly originated in SW Europe (like all the Bell Beaker phenomenon in general, several centuries older in Iberia, Southern France and North Italy than further north) and only then migrated north (in parallel to the maritime or international style). I have the impression that the paper you cite is stuck in obsolete chronologies and models that suggested that the BB phenomenon originated in or near Bohemia, something that now seems totally indefensible. <br /><br />BTW, I'm surprised that they don't even mention all the AOC BB in Catalonia and Portuguese Estremadura, being particularly common in both regions (in the latter mixed with the finer International style). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-6766572366632158392015-10-06T01:55:44.194-05:002015-10-06T01:55:44.194-05:00Thank for your time! Actually I was thinking about...Thank for your time! Actually I was thinking about something you wrote... Maybe Central European beaker people -bringing corded styles and maybe IE languages- used/moved through the network established by the guys who used the Maritime styles, finally also reaching the Iberian Peninsula through the western Pyrenees, and Galicia by sea:<br /><br />https://www.academia.edu/561851/Del_Campaniforme_cordado_AOC_en_el_Noroeste_hisp%C3%A1nico._Un_extra%C3%B1o_e_inesperado_invitado<br /><br />Well. Wait and see... Again, thank you for you time :-)Cossuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00504867599625947101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-27252526368912641272015-10-04T23:23:01.123-05:002015-10-04T23:23:01.123-05:00Thanks for posting Cossue.
This question will be...Thanks for posting Cossue. <br /><br />This question will be difficult to test with DNA. So far it would appear that the CW contribution to Beaker happened after the Beaker Genesis. But if CW in the Western Pyrenees & N. Portugal actually sparked the Beaker Genesis in Iberia, then the question is did those Corded Ware people contribute to the male ancestry of Beakers?<br /><br />I will look at this apper again. Thxbellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-85584975735207028802015-10-04T14:19:23.775-05:002015-10-04T14:19:23.775-05:00Well, I'm not really well acquainted with Beak...Well, I'm not really well acquainted with Beakers, but as a Galician I find really interesting several of the chapters of this books, most notably the chapter about the Beakers at the Dombate dolmen and the last one, showing some notable presence of corded styles and a clear relation to Brittany's. Ok, just for the case that you or another one of us readers find it of interest:<br />https://www.academia.edu/5952632/Current_researches_on_Bell_BeakersCossuehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00504867599625947101noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-82870578552464499152015-10-02T14:55:55.646-05:002015-10-02T14:55:55.646-05:00"Etruscan genetics, IIRC, don't really su..."Etruscan genetics, IIRC, don't really support a recent Aegean of West Anatolian origin for the Iron Age Etruscans".<br /><br />How can you say that? There's been at least one study on precisely Iron Age Etruscan mtDNA that made them appear very close to Anatolian peoples (what strongly reinforces the Trojan or "Lydian" hypothesis). Also in nearly all studies modern Tuscans appear to be significantly more Eastern-leaning than other Italians. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com