tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post356427045749201938..comments2024-02-07T23:25:07.429-06:00Comments on Bell Beaker Blogger: 2 Vučedol Period are R1b (Szecsenyi-Nagy)bellbeakerbloggerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-27940096694332502832015-07-01T19:25:48.888-05:002015-07-01T19:25:48.888-05:00Call me a romantic, but I really really want to se...Call me a romantic, but I really really want to see a) more Western Europe samples and b) Cucuteni-Sredny Stog samplesla señora bibilonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14446006130319307036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-54852160313335449382015-07-01T02:58:58.266-05:002015-07-01T02:58:58.266-05:00Settle down. Settle down. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-78308401108124193472015-07-01T02:04:09.617-05:002015-07-01T02:04:09.617-05:00Spain and France are very big. All those data poin...Spain and France are very big. All those data points are from the Mediterranean. I'm so f* angry at your shameless hypocrisy!Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-10328972814800007282015-06-30T20:46:32.216-05:002015-06-30T20:46:32.216-05:00Megalithic Spain 3900-3600 BC: I2a1a1, I2a2a1.
Tre...Megalithic Spain 3900-3600 BC: I2a1a1, I2a2a1.<br />Treilles, France 3000 BC: 100% I2a1 and G2a. <br />Megalithic France 2750-2725 BC: 2/2 I2a1.<br />Hungary 2860-2620 BC: R1b, I2a2a.<br /><br />If R1b-P312 or just R1b is found in West Europe older than the Beakers and the recently found Hungarian R1b or without any ANE I'll change my opinion. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-38915671995515896272015-06-30T17:05:36.046-05:002015-06-30T17:05:36.046-05:00It's clear as mud! When researchers bother sam...It's clear as mud! When researchers bother sampling Western Europe you'll tell me. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-77938973257821977962015-06-30T12:52:03.611-05:002015-06-30T12:52:03.611-05:00It's clear R1b-L51 arrived with Yamnaya-types ...It's clear R1b-L51 arrived with Yamnaya-types right after 3000 BC. What isn't clear is the route its decedents took. P312 could have been introduced to the West by ANE-rich Eastern folk around 2800 BC and then expanded East. <br /><br />R1b-P312 being in the West in 3000-4000 BC and L51 arriving earlier, is impossible IMO. At least one R1b(xV88) would have been found in our 92 Neolithic Y DNA samples. The first evidence of non-European admixture in Neolithic farmers is in 2800 BC with Corded Ware. It isn't likely that a foreign lineage arrived after the initial spread of farming and before Corded Ware and became dominate. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-89598092843365354082015-06-30T01:57:38.336-05:002015-06-30T01:57:38.336-05:00"Probably"? NOPE. S116 has a very clear ..."Probably"? NOPE. S116 has a very clear Western distribution and structural centrality. Please stop making up things out of pure fanaticism. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-62881708402831137512015-06-30T01:56:21.027-05:002015-06-30T01:56:21.027-05:00Nice details, thanks. Poor testing strategy. Basic...Nice details, thanks. Poor testing strategy. Basically we know ones is M269 and the other might be (by analogy), and they could be anything within it. Most probably "residual" M269(xM412) of which Hungary has a large fraction (~30% of R1b in Hungary is that M269* paragroup, also common in Turkey, etc.)Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-57981918559212886692015-06-29T19:46:33.352-05:002015-06-29T19:46:33.352-05:00My best is this Pre-Bell Beaker R1b is P312 and th...My best is this Pre-Bell Beaker R1b is P312 and the ancestor of Bell Beaker's P312. <br /><br />DF27, L21, U152 were all probably born around Hungary or just West of it circa 2500 BC and expanded out of that area. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-74560041644295564352015-06-29T17:30:17.856-05:002015-06-29T17:30:17.856-05:00The oldest R1b wasn't tested for M269. It is n...The oldest R1b wasn't tested for M269. It is negative for U106 though. The youngest R1b was tested for M269 and came out positive and is negative for U106(probably same P312 family as Beakers). Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-4438012851910286022015-06-29T14:53:29.309-05:002015-06-29T14:53:29.309-05:00Good catch in the OP. Not overwhelming enough to ...Good catch in the OP. Not overwhelming enough to shift any paradigms, but notable.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-10659096979443716102015-06-29T13:34:46.742-05:002015-06-29T13:34:46.742-05:00I just got THIS LINK via email (from Jean Lohizun)...I just got <a href="http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fi1133.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm582%2Fjeanlohizun%2FSzeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Table-5_zpsvs9kzedk.jpg&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNGou9SfP3jqdxRNGysYHR7RFW097w" rel="nofollow">THIS LINK</a> via email (from Jean Lohizun) on a "dissertation" on mtDNA of those very same cultures (except "Bronze Age" apparently). <br /><br />Low H in general: 3-29%. Also high T2, high K and notable J across the board. <br /><br />Sopot and Lengyel peoples appear the closest ones to modern Europeans in general (Balcanic and Fertile Crescent affinity is high in all groups) but not to Basques nor Finns, who are apparently unrelated in all cases. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-4640541337512971542015-06-29T12:02:37.710-05:002015-06-29T12:02:37.710-05:00I believe the second one is M269 from the Gáta/Wie...I believe the second one is M269 from the Gáta/Wieslburg Culture.<br /><br />The earlier one is either R1b* or failed to be further defined. Hopefully someone can get access to the metadata and check it and the other one out.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-16771134688072364962015-06-29T11:45:59.881-05:002015-06-29T11:45:59.881-05:00Oh, man, it's not even M269! It seems to have ...Oh, man, it's not even M269! It seems to have only been tested for M343, so it could be anything: Volga-Asia "Yamna" type, Chadic-Sardinian haplogroup, private near-root lineages... anything!Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-31984561660026950642015-06-29T11:37:23.772-05:002015-06-29T11:37:23.772-05:00Can anyone confirm if it is R1b-M269* (has it been...Can anyone confirm if it is R1b-M269* (has it been tested for downstream subclades such as L11, S116 and U106?), if so it seems pretty much unrelated to R1b expansion in Western Europe. <br /><br />More interesting seems to me the J2 in Sopot/Lengyel levels. It basically confirms the Neolithic Y-DNA Tetrad: G2a, E1b-V13, I-M26 and J2(b?), as prefigured by "old" analysis on modern population frequencies and structure. <br /><br />The presence of three C sequences is just mind-boggling. This kind of lineages was not found except in La Braña before. <br /><br />And 10 F*?! What can that be: T? P*, R*? Something completely different? I'm flippant. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-34794115371921716622015-06-29T11:32:11.840-05:002015-06-29T11:32:11.840-05:00Add to that:
Sudan --> West Asia --> South ...Add to that:<br /><br />Sudan --> West Asia --> South AsiaAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13013399855770625556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-24466875981080330662015-06-29T11:30:30.427-05:002015-06-29T11:30:30.427-05:00"This shows, though not conclusively, that R1..."This shows, though not conclusively, that R1b also expanded from the Steppe"<br /><br />My analysis of the LCT haplotype is building up a picture of suggested gene-flow:- <br />Sudan --> West Asia -> Urals --> NE Europe; <br />Sudan --> North Africa --> SW Europe;<br />Sudan --> West Asia --> Central Asia --> Korea;<br />Sudan --> West Africa;<br /><br />I have been observing similar patterns in HLA haplotypes for many years.<br /><br />There are suggestions of this pattern in GM immunoglobulin haplotypes.<br /><br />African Y DNA haplogroups and mtDNA types are found all over SW & S Europe, but also in places such as Finland and Russia.<br /><br />R1b could follow such a path.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13013399855770625556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-35020528052413230912015-06-29T10:32:38.995-05:002015-06-29T10:32:38.995-05:00I see RISE1 from Oblaczkovo, Poland, 2700 BCE, whi...I see RISE1 from Oblaczkovo, Poland, 2700 BCE, which one is the first?bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-38737419918072291022015-06-29T10:09:01.611-05:002015-06-29T10:09:01.611-05:00The oldest R1b is from 2860-2620 BC. That's be...The oldest R1b is from 2860-2620 BC. That's before Bell Beaker arrived in Central Europe. There's another pre-Bell Beaker R1b west of the Urals from Corded Ware Poland and around the same time. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-56300300787644666832015-06-29T09:18:19.625-05:002015-06-29T09:18:19.625-05:00That will be interesting, especially from this are...That will be interesting, especially from this area. It looks like a second wave from the Near East about the same timeframe that Hervella showed several weeks ago.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-3721736292521586492015-06-29T08:46:24.343-05:002015-06-29T08:46:24.343-05:00The Lengyel and Sopot looks like a mixed area repr...The Lengyel and Sopot looks like a mixed area representing different hg's its also interesting that there is J2! probably the oldest in Europe? can't wait to see the ADMIXTURE runs if possible....Nirjhar007https://www.blogger.com/profile/12880827026479135118noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-84655624175858494552015-06-29T07:04:12.800-05:002015-06-29T07:04:12.800-05:00We will have to see the dates. Certainly this is ...We will have to see the dates. Certainly this is intrusive to the Western Carpathian as all lineages, and she has quite a few, were Mesolithic/Farmer types.<br /><br />Hopefully, I can find the supplemental which will tell us a little more about these two individuals.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-91253133323045316442015-06-29T02:42:37.188-05:002015-06-29T02:42:37.188-05:00This R1b is not linked to what Gimbutas has writte...This R1b is not linked to what Gimbutas has written a few years ago !<br /><br />The Impact on Western Europe:<br />The Bell Beaker Folk — Descendants of the Amalgamated Pit Grave and Vucedol Culture in the Middle Danube Basin — and Their Exodus to the WestHelgenes50https://www.blogger.com/profile/10048641344885582425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-31794460438229579832015-06-29T00:35:51.976-05:002015-06-29T00:35:51.976-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Helgenes50https://www.blogger.com/profile/10048641344885582425noreply@blogger.com