tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post617377283827956215..comments2024-02-07T23:25:07.429-06:00Comments on Bell Beaker Blogger: Villabruna Hunter-Gatherer R1b (Qiaomei Fu et al, 2016)bellbeakerbloggerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-56742255665822463862016-09-02T17:48:19.544-05:002016-09-02T17:48:19.544-05:00I love this. But the Pontic-Steppe proponents won&...I love this. But the Pontic-Steppe proponents won't be happy..<br /><br />Just shows that if R1b1 was hanging around Southern Europe 14,000 years ago, I'd bet my bottom dollar that R1b originated not much further away than that (think Anatolia or the Levant, but not the Pontic Steppes) before it catapulted along the coastal areas of Western Europe and worked its way north up the mainland. Looking at R1b maps of Western Europe, an entry into south central/ western Europe fits with how R1b prevalence in Europe looks like today..<br />The original pioneers of this work might have got the time period of R1b origin wrong, but they were certainly not far off the mark in deducing the point of entry into Europe if this study is anything to go by. R1b may have simply entered Western Europe via the more central routes of the Mediterranean before 14,000 BCE and worked upwards and westwards towards Iberia and Britain (where it would reach its crescendo).Fascinating stuff indeed. AppocalypticQueenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15956782636994739038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-29826472198235315642016-05-30T13:47:07.391-05:002016-05-30T13:47:07.391-05:00R1b at 14,000 years ago? So how did he get to Ital...R1b at 14,000 years ago? So how did he get to Italy? Maybe he was on his way back to the Steppes where his Y-dna would have sat around for 10,000 years waiting for Yamanaya to show up? I thought those people stayed in one place until it was time to leave the wonderful Steppes and head to Italy. And pasta.<br /><br />BTW, this is pretty big news.<br />LivoniaGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05589404219598229067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-57028638084295379632016-05-30T13:45:38.840-05:002016-05-30T13:45:38.840-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.LivoniaGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05589404219598229067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-9351316636854423002016-05-11T12:47:21.987-05:002016-05-11T12:47:21.987-05:00This seems very early to have R1b south of the Alp...This seems very early to have R1b south of the Alps. I was firmly convinced of an origin in the Eurasian plain, but an R1b in Italy that cannot be far in time and space from the very first R1b is hard to explain. Does anyone know what the Villabrunan ate/hunted? <br /><br />I wonder what the implications are as regards to the R1b/R1a bifurcation point - I suppose we'd need DNA from the Crimea region in the same time frame to clear this up. Markohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528332333708536220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-20523575263537875892016-05-06T07:59:59.044-05:002016-05-06T07:59:59.044-05:00OM
Neither of the two;
Rather- it seems like a 3r...OM<br />Neither of the two; <br />Rather- it seems like a 3rd source mixed into both of them; hence drawing proto-WHG and CHG together <br /><br />*subject to further aDNA * ;)Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-90405135840924886672016-05-06T06:52:26.358-05:002016-05-06T06:52:26.358-05:00Rob. Just to clear. Is it satsublia into villabrun...Rob. Just to clear. Is it satsublia into villabruna or vilavruna like people into stasurblia?Olympus Monshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640679631703214884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-62680419019421541742016-05-06T06:52:18.795-05:002016-05-06T06:52:18.795-05:00Rob. Just to clear. Is it satsublia into villabrun...Rob. Just to clear. Is it satsublia into villabruna or vilavruna like people into stasurblia?Olympus Monshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640679631703214884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-4166241895048521112016-05-05T16:59:36.372-05:002016-05-05T16:59:36.372-05:00Looked at it again, Vestonice- Gravettians are mos...Looked at it again, Vestonice- Gravettians are mostly Kostenki-like (90%); which was found with in a local Russian form of the Aurignacian ; the rest deriving from more West European forms <br /><br />Another thing: whg is in no way middle eastern . This is an apparent ohenomenon due to common admixture from a 3rd source <br /><br />The paper spells this out clearly : it's not the BE portion of CHG, nor CHG cluster itself which has admixed into villabruna; which must mean its the ANE part of the Satsurblia-like population - who's source is yet to be sampled: but 99% chance it's Balkan- Black Sea HGsRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-68404222261184458472016-05-05T16:57:13.050-05:002016-05-05T16:57:13.050-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-31217165195777958972016-05-05T08:36:58.553-05:002016-05-05T08:36:58.553-05:00Yes actually I have seen that same suggestive data...Yes actually I have seen that same suggestive data, but there are equally early dates in the Danube . Naturally; we'll need aDNA from Eastern Europe to confirm what shift exactly happened with the Gravettian. <br />To be sure, it appears to have some links with certain earlier Aurignacian lineages from even west Central Europe - did it not ?<br /><br />Also, hg I was already present in Italy ~ 33 ky BP.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-26243637550069825832016-05-05T08:34:58.425-05:002016-05-05T08:34:58.425-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-12633038444427626832016-05-05T08:16:06.515-05:002016-05-05T08:16:06.515-05:00I believe that was true until Buran-Kaya III in Cr...I believe that was true until Buran-Kaya III in Crimea dated to 32,000 years ago. <br />http://www.rug.nl/research/portal/files/6800747/2013RadiocarbonPean.pdf<br /><br />I think the trend is away from local development to something more intrusive, perhaps again ultimately radiating from earlier Middle Eastern people. https://paleo.revues.org/607#tocto1n2<br /><br />A number of people associate with IJK expanding from that area.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-23466135766619769142016-05-05T05:10:32.670-05:002016-05-05T05:10:32.670-05:00"ince the Gravettian was an expansion of mamm..."ince the Gravettian was an expansion of mammoth and bison hunters from north of the Black Sea going west"<br /><br />That's news to me , given the earliest Gravettian sites are in (east-) Central Europe (?)Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-40969007146121633932016-05-04T15:42:24.076-05:002016-05-04T15:42:24.076-05:00Or they were from Dnieper basin (or volga, or what...Or they were from Dnieper basin (or volga, or whatever) and went round the black sea and a bit west (Villabruna) and naturally south to Anatolia and levant?<br /><br />Isn't it what people having been saying? did anyone expect them to be under a rock for 15,000 years and just pop up to become ruling western Europe Patrileneage?<br />Olympus Monshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08640679631703214884noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-90419981714870931722016-05-04T14:25:52.938-05:002016-05-04T14:25:52.938-05:00Thanks for sharing the link to that 2008 study on ...Thanks for sharing the link to that 2008 study on Villabruna. Now that we have his DNA he's a very interesting individual. He didn't just have R1b1, it looks like based on amateur analysis he had pre-R1b1a1a. He was pretty deep on the R1b tree. It's amazing to see someone who lived so long ago belong to a lineage that only became popular in Western Europe in the last 5,000 years. <br /><br />It's important to remember he wasn't a stranger to Paleolithic Europe. Since at least 37,000 years ago people apart of the large "West Eurasian" family that Villabruna was apart of inhabited Europe. The "El Minro" cluster which the 19,000-15,000 year old genomes from Spain and Germany belonged to is very closely related to Villabruna. Very related. It does look like Villabruna's people replaced them, but they were replacing brothers. <br /><br />The media is miss interpreting the rise of VillaBruna/WHG's people and their Near Eastern origins. We have no idea where they came from. Western/Central Europe, like Italy, is a good candidate. Middle Easterner's today and in the Stone age(especially in Turkey/EEF) do infact have VillaBruna/WHG related ancestry. But this doesn't mean VillaBruna/WHG is from the Middle East. It might instead be that WHG/Villabruna is from (West)Europe and migrated to the Middle East. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.com