tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post3850946695898413160..comments2024-02-07T23:25:07.429-06:00Comments on Bell Beaker Blogger: Bell Beaker DNA and Quick Out-takesbellbeakerbloggerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-82776788445709935472020-07-22T11:23:42.348-05:002020-07-22T11:23:42.348-05:00https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambri...<br />https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/6F6223448D130FECBDB899F660EA9873/S0079497X19000045a.pdf/reintegrating_archaeology_a_contribution_to_adna_studies_and_the_migration_discourse_on_the_3rd_millennium_bc_in_europe.pdf<br /><br />"The narrative of Yamnaya males migrating westwards severely undervalues the complexity of processes indicated by this single burial mound."<br /><br />"This polythetic view of the 3rd millennium indicates that the narrative of Steppe-derived migration creating ‘Corded Ware Culture’ and later ‘Bell Beaker Societies’ is misleading."<br /><br />"Thus, the suggestion of mixing between those labelled as ‘natives’ and ‘locals’ should not be seen as especially remarkable, or exceptional. Rather, it should remind us that what we often casually refer to as ‘migration’ is likely a summary term for a multiplicity of individual local and regional histories of movement, mixture, and secession, probably over many generations."<br /><br /><br />https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/B225B14D82066373B2C11295AA1D1462/S1461957117000432a.pdf/div-class-title-massive-migrations-the-impact-of-recent-adna-studies-on-our-view-of-third-millennium-europe-div.pdf<br /><br />"This argument has, however, some flaws. The time between the latest individual of the Middle Neolithic without the eastern European genetic component (dating to between 3300 and 3100 cal BC) and the earliest Corded Ware individual sampled in Haak et al. (2015; dating to around 2560 cal BC to 2470 cal BC) is about 700 years."<br /><br />"A sudden turnover of the whole population, as suggested by Haak et al. (2015), would be a truly dramatic, even genocidal, event, which is a possibility. But it is also a quite extreme scenario, for which one would like to have some additional arguments."<br /><br />" By integrating such residues of Kossinna-like ethno-essentialism and biologism, whether intentional or not, into models of population history that are combined with cutting-edge scientific methods, we run into the danger of providing supposedly scientific support for political forces who build their demagogies on exactly those assumptions about the nature of societies, ethnic identities, and biologic relatedness"<br /><br />"A fundamental step consists of rejecting the level of whole and bounded groups on a European scale, abandoning the narrative of unified groups of people jointly migrating from one area to another."Mayuresh Madhav Kelkarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18418844256177729386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-84779137529343605952015-03-11T15:38:07.682-05:002015-03-11T15:38:07.682-05:00In broad strokes, we see that R1* emerges in the s...In broad strokes, we see that R1* emerges in the same area that the IE urhiemat is suspected. We have evidence of both migration and large scale population turnover in Europe at the same time spread of IE is suspected. We see that prior to the haplogroups associated with IE, Europe was dominated by "Old Europe" haplogroups. While admitting there is incomplete knowledge about the exact linkage and timing of R1b and Bell Beaker emergence in Western Europe, I fail to see how either could be seen as purely autocthounous. Indeed the reverse seems mot likely true - early net migration from the East to West, then making use of local materials and culture while introducing innovations which are shared with Corded Ware, etc. and this broadcasting back to the East, perhaps into the Isle, etc.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04045346085680701972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-15006063437447183292015-02-14T08:04:07.835-06:002015-02-14T08:04:07.835-06:00"including Ethiopia where colonial European a..."including Ethiopia where colonial European admixture is highly unlikely, and pygmies who have only mixed with Bantus"<br /><br />Perhaps there was a sort of mixture... we don't know what happened: R-M269 and R-M17 in Egypt and Sudan could come from Arabs, or from Mamalukes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-60675613808664284732015-02-12T16:56:00.299-06:002015-02-12T16:56:00.299-06:00Everybody only knows of R-V88 in Africa, however R...Everybody only knows of R-V88 in Africa, however R-M269 is also increasingly turning up all over Africa, including Ethiopia where colonial European admixture is highly unlikely, and pygmies who have only mixed with Bantus. That is R-M269 or R-P297, found in African populations, and separate and distinct from R-V88 (in many cases along side it). It is necessary to read several papers to find this, especially papers from more recent years. With R-M269 also being found in West Asia, which is probably the source of the African R-M269.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13013399855770625556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-60470781662235586822015-02-12T16:37:54.771-06:002015-02-12T16:37:54.771-06:00"All European m269 is from the Steppes"
..."All European m269 is from the Steppes"<br /><br />Right. So is all African and all West Asian R-M269 'from the Steppes' too? Did the Kurgan invasions reach the Khoisan and the central African pygmies? The Hausa? The Gabonese? The Ethiopians? Yemenis? Saudis? Algerians? Libyans? Egyptians?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13013399855770625556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-70951434850299790622015-02-12T14:11:09.922-06:002015-02-12T14:11:09.922-06:00Those under L51 that is. Some m269 may take anothe...Those under L51 that is. Some m269 may take another course with later metal age movements. The Iberian is not ancestral to us, neither is any other one but the Samara hunter. Yamnaya is a mix of the R1b population and a near eastern one. Bell Beaker is 50% of that, and 50% Middle Neolithic. It's pretty well settled. We just need an L51 in the steppes, which looks like a shoe-in with his great-grandfather, father, and brother there. Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-16200816304971814882015-02-12T14:07:06.648-06:002015-02-12T14:07:06.648-06:00Chris,
That is all impossible. P297 split in North...Chris,<br />That is all impossible. P297 split in Northern Eurasia. One Yamnaya was P297, ancestral for M269 and M73. They both arose in that area. Forget Africa. R1b split apart on the steppes. It is pretty obvious now. A population in Africa, the Steppes, and Spain CANNOT independently develop the same SNPS to the next clade. All European m269 is from the Steppes. Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-61507912189505955592015-02-12T07:51:46.112-06:002015-02-12T07:51:46.112-06:00Our understanding of the major West Eurasian haplo...Our understanding of the major West Eurasian haplogroups is based almost exclusively on the European continent.<br />I think as we get ancient DNA from places like Dilmun, Indus Valley, Axum or Mesopotamia, the archeo-genetic community will get a good jolt.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-28375066455789448852015-02-12T04:09:58.603-06:002015-02-12T04:09:58.603-06:00Given the other genetic markers which indicate mig...Given the other genetic markers which indicate migrations from North Africa, I favour a North West African origin of R-M269 in Europe, with an ultimate origin of R-M269 itself somewhere between Nile Valley and Iran.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13013399855770625556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-56072586460072778142015-02-12T03:44:42.538-06:002015-02-12T03:44:42.538-06:00For me, the origin of R-M269 might be anywhere bet...For me, the origin of R-M269 might be anywhere between Egypt/Sudan and Iran. However it is notable that Egypt/Sudan have several different forms of R1a, R1b, and R2. R-V88 and R-M269 are found together in Egypt/Sudan and other regions of North Africa, Sahara, and Sahel plus points southward. R-M269 itself is found in many parts of Africa and West Asia. Within Africa, it is notable in Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Chad, northern Nigeria (and probably Niger too), Horn of Africa, and several others.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13013399855770625556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-84421615835499731912015-02-12T01:09:06.940-06:002015-02-12T01:09:06.940-06:00They're mostly Near Eastern though. They might...They're mostly Near Eastern though. They might be from Neolithic farmers different from those we're used to.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-64955568841792157502015-02-11T19:44:20.282-06:002015-02-11T19:44:20.282-06:00Well, I agree that it is certainly looking good fo...Well, I agree that it is certainly looking good for a geographical bifurcation origin. I'd like to see DNA from outside Europe though. I expect a lot of surprises.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-30559312093718735312015-02-11T19:30:26.900-06:002015-02-11T19:30:26.900-06:00It's an interesting possibility. Maglio had p...It's an interesting possibility. Maglio had proposed this with V88 which is linked on the sidebarbellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-41967244640174954892015-02-11T18:51:56.092-06:002015-02-11T18:51:56.092-06:00That Iberian is more likely to be v88 or the ances...That Iberian is more likely to be v88 or the ancestral group to v88. It has nothing to do with m269 in Western Europe. We are Yamnaya Indo-Europeans. Plain and simple. Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-49194438408507374992015-02-11T18:49:22.730-06:002015-02-11T18:49:22.730-06:00R1a1* and R1b1* in Mesolithic Russia. Nearly 100% ...R1a1* and R1b1* in Mesolithic Russia. Nearly 100% R1a1-M417 in bronze and iron age IEs of Asia. 3/3 R1a-M417 from Corded ware. 3/3 R1b from Bell Beaker. 7/7 R1b from Yamna. R* from Upper Paleolithic MA-1.<br /><br />There's a clear pattern. It's very possible R1b-P297 arose in Russia and moved down south into west Asia. I agree with you though, that it is possible R1b-P297 moved up from west Asia. <br /><br />But anyways one of the best pieces of info from this paper in my opinion is R1b-P312 from Bell beaker. They weren't able to test it for any P312 basal clades. Bell beaker really seems to have been a R1b-L11 heavy culture, considering now they have 3/3 R1b while earlier Corded ware has 3/3 R1a-M417. This suggests a pretty old diversification of L11 in west Europe in my opinion. It could have spread mostly in the Late Neolithic and Bronze age. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-83223676076980717172015-02-11T18:37:04.361-06:002015-02-11T18:37:04.361-06:00You got the Iberian wrong. It is not L51. It is L2...You got the Iberian wrong. It is not L51. It is L278, way back in the R1b tree, like the Samara hunter. The Iberian is not ancestral the AMH R1b. Those younger subclades are from the East. Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-37975945773090980072015-02-11T17:13:06.921-06:002015-02-11T17:13:06.921-06:00your example is plausible. farmers appear to have...your example is plausible. farmers appear to have been overrun in several places including Southeast France. on the other hand the yamnaya samples don't appear to be farmer maternal lineages IMObellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-8824446655098017862015-02-11T16:57:05.414-06:002015-02-11T16:57:05.414-06:00Neolithic farmers migrated to the steppe. But perh...Neolithic farmers migrated to the steppe. But perhaps Eastern European R1 foragers took farmer wives, just like the I2/C6 foragers did in Western and Central Europe.<br /><br />If so, I don't know what happened to the farmers and their Y-DNA? Maybe some did pass on their genes and more sampling will find G2 and J2 amongst the mixed steppe herders?<br /><br />Also, I think there's a problem with using modern Armenians as references. We don't know who lived in eastern Anatolia before the R1 and ANE arrived there, in my view from the steppe. Whoever it was, maybe they weren't very Armenian-like at that point.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-41532984986289273452015-02-11T16:28:17.711-06:002015-02-11T16:28:17.711-06:00I've always maintained that Bell Beaker was fr...I've always maintained that Bell Beaker was from the steppe, a different steppe.<br /><br />Also, I only ask the question regarding the Els Torcs individual. I doubt he had any substantial impact on later lineages and I agree with the authors regarding R1b's eastern origin.<br /><br />I also agree with the authors some of the population turnover came from other places such as the Armenian plateau (ultimately)bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-20275751074881635342015-02-11T16:21:53.168-06:002015-02-11T16:21:53.168-06:00Clearly the North Pontic was subject to Near Easte...Clearly the North Pontic was subject to Near Eastern immigration in the 5th/6th m. B.C. I think this was demonstrated in the Armenian-like admixture.<br /><br />If R1 bifurcated on the steppe, who was it that immigrated into the Pontic Steppe from the Near East? bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-71980429786749460852015-02-11T16:11:10.877-06:002015-02-11T16:11:10.877-06:00Bell beaker was not anti-steppe, because they had ...Bell beaker was not anti-steppe, because they had slightly less than CWC. Bell Beaker can be fit as over 50% Yamna. Every Yamna male had R1b, and everyone of them tested for L23 had it. L23 wasn't found in Neolithic Europe, it was found in Yamna. Also, the same R1b1* that was found in Neolithic Spain was found in Mesolithic Samara. So, there's clear biased on your point, because you're ignoring the data. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-55132495590562908492015-02-11T16:03:54.407-06:002015-02-11T16:03:54.407-06:00The Eastern European steppe looks like the place w...The Eastern European steppe looks like the place where R1 bifurcated into its main subclades, which then expanded to the Near East and Europe.<br /><br />This would explain the late arrival and uneven spread of ANE in both regions, because both of the Eastern European R1a/R1b forgers were about 40% ANE.<br /><br />It would also fit nicely with R1 + ANE being important markers of the Proto-Indo-European expansion.Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.com