tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post5279501059172882121..comments2024-02-07T23:25:07.429-06:00Comments on Bell Beaker Blogger: Alpine Savages, Valencia de Vucedol, Westphalian Weirdosbellbeakerbloggerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-61275762829490347912017-09-13T20:39:12.476-05:002017-09-13T20:39:12.476-05:00They seem to have remained separate for a long tim...They seem to have remained separate for a long time based on my understanding of the EN and MN. Not sure how that factors though<br /><br />bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-70042522993147294782017-09-12T11:12:09.662-05:002017-09-12T11:12:09.662-05:00I've wondered if people with hunter-gatherer a...I've wondered if people with hunter-gatherer ancestry in Eastern and Central Europe in the late Neolithic and early Bronze Age maintained a sense of having a distinct ethic identity and gravitated to non-agricultural occupations like trading and metal-working. If that's the case, this could have lead to a shift in the genetic make-up of Europe as these professions became more economically important, and more robust long-distance trade networks were established during the Bell Beaker period.Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02405542521669952060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-73107938050552511832017-09-10T21:24:00.503-05:002017-09-10T21:24:00.503-05:00Thanks for the heads up. I'll check it outThanks for the heads up. I'll check it outbellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-72685871937380633862017-09-10T06:42:18.855-05:002017-09-10T06:42:18.855-05:00Did you read this already: http://sci-hub.io/10.10...Did you read this already: http://sci-hub.io/10.1073/pnas.1706355114<br /><br />It looks like the Bell Beakers really laid the groundwork for the alpine cultures of the metal ages that would expand in the late bronze age to change the linguistic landscape of Europe. Interestingly, the authors report instances of wealth status being conferred through the maternal line. The transition of BBC -> EBA in Bavaria seems to be marked by the influx of northern women (I presume from Epi-Corded-Ware sites?), specifically from Bohemia and Central Germany.Markohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528332333708536220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-31325806484777820352017-09-10T05:51:43.184-05:002017-09-10T05:51:43.184-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Markohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528332333708536220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-67062082105322163442017-09-08T14:15:40.607-05:002017-09-08T14:15:40.607-05:00I keep reading about BBs, and I still don't ha...I keep reading about BBs, and I still don't have a clear picture. In fact, more info just seems to muddy the H2O. Mark B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03524735496130204611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-90199393398884163942017-09-07T00:44:50.089-05:002017-09-07T00:44:50.089-05:00Thanks. I look forward to seeing the Olalde genom...Thanks. I look forward to seeing the Olalde genomes released. That'll keep us busy for a while.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-42940265237271133072017-09-06T22:12:14.375-05:002017-09-06T22:12:14.375-05:00Super interesting brah. Yeah, we still don't k...Super interesting brah. Yeah, we still don't know where North Beaker folk came from. I tend to think, based only on genetics, they were a new population from east of France with no local "Atlantic" admixture. <br /><br />And also I think their EEF/WHG and Steppe ancestry came strictly from two groups (a native one and a Steppe one). The EHG/WHG group may have been Funnel Beaker folk and the Steppe group may have been Yamnaya. Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-68153307045660807782017-09-05T10:17:40.292-05:002017-09-05T10:17:40.292-05:00"So, a steppe y-dna clade predominates in BB ..."So, a steppe y-dna clade predominates in BB and BB carries significant steppe dna."<br /><br />Significant steppe DNA yes, just a lot less than the Corded Ware from whom they partly descend. Why are Bell Beakers at most 50% Steppic and not 75% Steppic? <br /><br />I'm not saying M269 is from Western Europe, I'm saying the math doesn't work, bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-25031761305414770182017-09-04T18:24:48.948-05:002017-09-04T18:24:48.948-05:00The predominant M269 in BB is R1b-L23>L51>L1...The predominant M269 in BB is R1b-L23>L51>L151>P312. It certainly looks like R1b-L23 came from the steppe, since the other culture where R1b-L23 is found in plenty is Yamnaya, and its father M269 probably did, too. So, a steppe y-dna clade predominates in BB and BB carries significant steppe dna. Rich S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16189251350370584338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-69294689477175834062017-09-03T01:05:34.154-05:002017-09-03T01:05:34.154-05:00I'm not quite sure , but it would be equivalen...I'm not quite sure , but it would be equivalent to Dutch and German Beakers most likely. <br />An interesting individual to look at would be the Boscombe Beaker, but the genomes are not released yet.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-69735364013160061912017-09-02T21:37:36.743-05:002017-09-02T21:37:36.743-05:00What percentage of CHG ancestry do British Beakers...What percentage of CHG ancestry do British Beakers show?Romulus the I2a L233+ Proto Balto-Slav, layer of Corded Ware Womenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10022650074050864850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-29488230544160876532017-09-02T20:36:34.363-05:002017-09-02T20:36:34.363-05:00I'm not familiar with Anati, I'll have to ...I'm not familiar with Anati, I'll have to check that out.<br />I think that the mystery of the profound rise in CHG in the steppe could be related to the questions of the Western Europe MN. The rise CHG wasn't insignificant, accidental or the result of conquest by CHG men.<br />It could be that HG's found a niche that allowed the to overwhelm sedentary peoples. Pastoralism and horses are possible explanation. bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-85512172367538232082017-09-02T18:45:19.472-05:002017-09-02T18:45:19.472-05:00In light of this (migration from Eastern Europe to...In light of this (migration from Eastern Europe to the west), what do you think of the connection of the Middle Neolithic to the Eastern European Mesolithic centered around the Danubian gorge? IIRC, one of the foremosts expert on European rock art, Emmanuel Anati, called the distinctive idols of Lepenski Vir 'proto-statue-menhirs' and alluded to the possibility that these could be the source of the stelae that seem to appear out of nowhere in both the steppe and Western Europe (esp. France & Switzerland).<br /><br />Quite an unlikely scenario perhaps since the archaeological record is so sketchy, but the distinctive developments of the West European Middle Neolithic do seem to precede the intrusion of proper steppe-like (i.e. CHG-rich) aDNA.<br /><br />The morphological differences you described are interesting. I dimly remember that Coon described the CW immigrants as extremely long-faced and dolichocephalic, no? So quite dissimilar to those Beakers.Markohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13528332333708536220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-70081321629159452812017-09-02T12:55:23.889-05:002017-09-02T12:55:23.889-05:00My point is that presuming Iberian Bell Beaker is ...My point is that presuming Iberian Bell Beaker is a purely native Iberian is wrong when it is clear in the Meseta that they are genetically not native (Roth, 2016)<br />M269 is clearly intrusive to Western Europe, but how it expanded and with whom it was first associated may be much different than the current narrative.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-52766138305644842542017-09-02T10:27:40.479-05:002017-09-02T10:27:40.479-05:00Olalde et al sampled a lot of non-Iberian Bell Bea...Olalde et al sampled a lot of non-Iberian Bell Beaker remains and found nothing about them that was genetically Iberian. Even the Neolithic farmer component in non-Iberian BB is not Iberian but fits Globular Amphora + TRB best. What if the surprise caused by this is due to the fact that the Spanish Model of BB origins is erroneous, as it certainly appears to be?<br /><br />If these brachycephalic forager "savages" you described contributed to BB, it must have been through females, because there is no sign of y-dna R1b-M269 or its scion, R1b-L23, in Neolithic central or western Europe thus far.Rich S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16189251350370584338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-25966099178174923352017-09-01T15:13:11.478-05:002017-09-01T15:13:11.478-05:00I can only point to the previous posts at the mome...I can only point to the previous posts at the moment. The more recent ones in the last two or three months of the Olalde paper have some out links to the anthropological studies. I'd point more in there, but kind of busy recently.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-45894408702118781092017-09-01T13:23:57.035-05:002017-09-01T13:23:57.035-05:00The terminology about anthropological types isn...The terminology about anthropological types isn't terribly non-standard, but FWIW, I have a very hard time following it without pictures.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.com