tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post5379188915220932689..comments2024-02-07T23:25:07.429-06:00Comments on Bell Beaker Blogger: Haplogroup H and Modern Europebellbeakerbloggerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-5879504688042615772015-01-05T22:29:09.859-06:002015-01-05T22:29:09.859-06:00"H1 in particular reaches its maximum human f..."H1 in particular reaches its maximum human frequency among Berbers of Southwest Libya (near the Acacus and Tassili n'ajjer) "<br /><br />Places of maximal frequency are almost never the place of origin of a haplogroup. Often they are inversely related. They typically indicate a founder effect.<br /><br />The case for European mtDNA making its way from Iberia to North Africa in the Mesolithic as part of the pre-Neolithic Iberiomaurusian culture at the dawn of the Holocene during a green Sahara period is a pretty good one. Rather than invading Amazons, you have gender balanced demic migration from Iberian to Northwest Africa, followed by male dominated Berber migration the replaces existing male populations at very high rates while bringing only a modest number of women, if any and also leads to language shift from a pre-existing ergative language with roots in Mesolithic Europe, to Berber, with local Berber dialects showing the substrate influence where it is present.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-5522221211153589302014-12-07T16:09:13.833-06:002014-12-07T16:09:13.833-06:00"Basal R1b is in Central Asia, not West Asia ..."Basal R1b is in Central Asia, not West Asia or Africa."<br /><br />Central Asia has a lot of HLA haplotypes from West Asia and Africa, they look to have arrived <20kya.<br /><br />HLA Haplotype: <br />A*02:01-B*50:01-C*06:02-DRB1*07:01 <br />[one example of many]<br /><br />United Arab Emirates [N=298] 4.80%<br />Jordan [N=15,141] 3.86%<br />[Data for Egypt unavailable]<br />Morocco Settat Chaouya [N=98] 3.60%<br />Tunisia [N=100] 3.00%<br />Pakistan Mixed Sindhi [N=101] 3.00%<br />**RUSSIA SOUTH URAL TATAR [N=135] 1.90%**<br />**RUSSIA CHUVASH [N=82] 1.80%**<br />Tunisia Ghannouch [N=82] 1.80%<br />Morocco Pop. 2 [N=110] 1.59%<br />Portugal Aveiro [N=5,933] 1.30%<br />Turkey Pop.2 [N=228] 1.30%<br />Tunisia Pop.3 [N=104] 1.20%<br />Portugal Braganca [N=301] 1.20%<br />Gaza Palestinian [N=165] 1.20%<br />Portugal Leiria [N=1,847] 1.10%<br />Portugal Porto [N=7,937] 1.00%<br />Portugal Santarem [N=3,865] 1.00%<br />Portugal Guarda [N=797] 1.00%<br />*RUSSIA SOUTH URAL BASHKIR [N=146] 1.00%**<br />etc. etc.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13013399855770625556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-2962216261311859002014-12-07T15:22:01.909-06:002014-12-07T15:22:01.909-06:00I would agree that R1b is an eastern lineage. I would agree that R1b is an eastern lineage. bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-5252180631680231422014-12-07T11:49:49.246-06:002014-12-07T11:49:49.246-06:00If R1b was in West Asia, we'd see it in the Ne...If R1b was in West Asia, we'd see it in the Neolithic. Basal R1b is in Central Asia, not West Asia or Africa.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13876988480444711159noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-34116221046943605982014-12-07T01:09:47.866-06:002014-12-07T01:09:47.866-06:00I strongly view North African influence as the ori...I strongly view North African influence as the original impetus for West Iberian Beaker culture. I didnt pull this view from a hat. It is based on the observed material culture and trade contacts. This view as been independently reached also by prominent archaeologists from several different schools.<br />The Middle Pastoralists entered tbeSarah around 4500 BC and came from Eastern Anatolia. Around 3500 BC is when they begin trading in Iberia.<br />Maybe they were R1b or maybe not, but in the end, North Africa is where it begins IMObellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-72418316951158394972014-12-07T00:57:59.002-06:002014-12-07T00:57:59.002-06:00Several issues are raised here, so I'll treat ...Several issues are raised here, so I'll treat individually.<br /><br />The Beaker phenomenon is viewed as an Iberian cultural expansion by almost all archaeological schools and has been for most of the last 86 years.<br /><br />Arbitrarily picking some miscellaneous Late Neolithic Balkan culture because it is halfway between the Pontic and Western Europe isn't a good use of time.<br /><br />"R1b didn't enter Iberia from Africa. There is no possible way."<br /><br />No possible way?! Based on the five guys that have had a DNA test. I'd say wait for the data. All sorts of weird stuff is likely to get churned up in Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan.<br /><br />I'll put my next comment in a separate entry..bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-63055106456087966122014-12-06T21:00:49.694-06:002014-12-06T21:00:49.694-06:00R1b didn't enter Iberia from Africa. There is ...R1b didn't enter Iberia from Africa. There is no possible way. L23 is split into an Eastern and Western Branch. The Eastern branch is not in West Asia, so the split had to be in Europe, somewhere. Not in West Asia. No one is going from the Steppes, through the Near East, across Africa, and into Iberia, in any kind of migration. Not from 3500BCE to 2800BCE, ages of L23 and Iberian Beaker. That's not even working down to the ages of L51-L11, which will be less than 3000BCE. That's too fast and too far, with no archaeological ties. Beaker women were absorbed my R1b men, in Central Europe. Look at Samogyvar, Mako, and Beaker bowls. They're the same with dagger preference of elite males. Plus, a migration into Central Germany. M-343 is in Asia. L-23 has a Western branch in Europe and West Asia, the Eastern branch is from the Balkans, North to Finland, and East, into Asia. At least as far as Mongolia. Old clades of M-269 are in Central Asia. A Steppe origin, into Ezero, and Cotafeni, and into Anatolia and Western Europe from there, makes more sense.Chadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10118937611048574688noreply@blogger.com