tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post761415530449938016..comments2024-02-07T23:25:07.429-06:00Comments on Bell Beaker Blogger: 18th Dynasty R1b, Tutankhamun mtdna K? (Gad et al, 2020)bellbeakerbloggerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-54068174253840253012024-01-10T03:46:08.419-06:002024-01-10T03:46:08.419-06:00Anon, There was DNA testing done a couple decades ...Anon, There was DNA testing done a couple decades ago (if I remember correctly, Zahi Hawass was involved), though it was more about confirming familiar relations between mummies, if I remember correctly. There was a "documentary" involved at one point (one of those History Channel / Discover Channel things) and some eagle-eyed viewers noticed that the STR results were visible on screen and were able to match his results with R1b. *However,* there was never any confirmation that those STR results were actually those of Tut, and Egyptian authorities refused to release the results, so there had been a lot of question marks regarding the R1b speculation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-33802553569058305202021-07-29T11:07:11.189-05:002021-07-29T11:07:11.189-05:00You should be aware that King Ahmose belonged to t...You should be aware that King Ahmose belonged to the 17th Dynasty [no matter where some of the ancient historians placed him]. That line ended with Amunhotep I. His successor was a man who became Thutmose I and was likely the founder of Dynasty 18. Nobody knows who the father of Thutmose I was, although the name of his mother is known. But nobody knows who she was either. Since a mummy I believe to have been a son of Amunhotep I [predeceased him at a young age] was used as a control in the study published in 2020 and his y-haplogroup was L--that is probably the group of Dynasty 17. So Thutmose I was the guy who likely introduced R1b and was the distant ancestor of Tutankhamun. This is assuming, of course, that every son was the true child of his father.<br /><br />At D13S317 of his autosomal profile Tut's grandfather, Amunhotep III has the numeric value 16 which is nonexistent in the modern Egyptian population. 16 is null in the entire Middle East except in Oman, to which came the Portuguese. In fact, 16 at that marker is only found on the Iberian Peninsula, Basques included, but is even rare there. Of course it will be seen in persons who are connected by ancestry to the peninsula. So how? The mitochondrial haplogroup of Amunhotep III is H2b. The name of his mother is known but nothing more about her. The H group is distantly connected to the peninsula, also, insofar as I know. I am H1, myself. The blood group of the same pharaoh is A2, also rare in Egypt.Latoledanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17765472010643114715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-80684460144448023782021-07-16T11:17:09.537-05:002021-07-16T11:17:09.537-05:00You are assuming too much. One can't make a se...You are assuming too much. One can't make a secure lineage from Ahmose I to Tutankhamun. Ahmose I belonged to Dynasty 17 and so did his son, Amenhotep I, no matter what any of the antique historisns believed. However, the successor of Amenhotep I was Thutmose I--and no one knows who his father was. So he was probably the originator of Dynasty 18, as his mother was not a queen, as he himself acknowledged in a letter to the Viceroy of Kush.Latoledanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17765472010643114715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-71345683644918211752020-12-04T21:43:33.573-06:002020-12-04T21:43:33.573-06:00Did you add that to your article on Tutankhamun, a...Did you add that to your article on Tutankhamun, and then remove it? I swear I read it on there. Maybe I'm losing my mind.Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17386123430230365251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-820344295586127062020-11-14T23:44:15.809-06:002020-11-14T23:44:15.809-06:00Holy Shit. Thanks!Holy Shit. Thanks!bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-35955306468016409712020-11-12T06:15:38.991-06:002020-11-12T06:15:38.991-06:00I've found an even closer fit (the closest I c...I've found an even closer fit (the closest I can find) - with R-L226 (a subclade of L21).<br />STRs v modern L226 haplotype:<br />Tut - 13 24 14 11 11 14 10 13 13 30 16 14 19 10 15 12<br />L226- 13 24 14 11 11 14 11 13 13 29 17 15 19 11 15 12<br />Estimated distance based on these STRs is 2,825 years, which is almost exactly the distance between Tutankhamun (4,362 ybp) and L226's MRCA (1,500 ybp, per yfull) = 2,862 years.<br /><br />L226 is a very odd SNP. It is clearly Atlantic Bell Beaker in formation (by my calculation from STRs, quite a bit older than yfull's estimate of 1,900 BC), but disappears into an apparent bottleneck for thousands of years before flourishing only in the common era in Ireland. It makes one wonder whether it was developing elsewhere (perhaps in a poorly sampled part of the world?), and calls to mind possible associations with the old Gaelic legend of the Egyptian Scota.Nicolas Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-53655400841031747822020-11-08T11:36:26.141-06:002020-11-08T11:36:26.141-06:00OK, although didn't these cultures and many of...OK, although didn't these cultures and many of their peoples sort of collapse into each other in Nubia during the second intermediate period, with both then being subsumed into Egypt at around the same time? They each seem to have been militarised, settling around Egyptian fortresses. We're not sure whether they were ever wholly distinctive ethnically, especially after having been drafted in to work for the Egyptians.Nicolas Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-29972348094208427742020-11-08T10:23:11.952-06:002020-11-08T10:23:11.952-06:00The Medjay are associated with the Pan-grave cultu...The Medjay are associated with the Pan-grave culture rather than the C-group culture. C-group might have come from Saharan Berber types.Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17386123430230365251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-21992996035392892292020-11-08T08:38:47.412-06:002020-11-08T08:38:47.412-06:00Based on Tutankhamun's given STRs, my best est...Based on Tutankhamun's given STRs, my best estimates for a most recent common yDNA ancestor with modern R1b-Y139456 or R1b-DF27>Y24895 are 1,603 to 2,338 BC. These are the closest fits I've found.Nicolas Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-91076590589656949532020-11-08T06:29:56.013-06:002020-11-08T06:29:56.013-06:00I tried Tutankhamun's readings on the Nevgen p...I tried Tutankhamun's readings on the Nevgen predictor, and could only get R1b (generic, with 99.9% probability), rather than DF27 specifically. Examining scores of subclades, I did find one good DF27-positive possible alternative to Y139456, and this is Y24895. Its estimated age (mid-3rd millennium BC) and geographical coverage (South Western Spain, Portugal and Anglo-Norman) is similar, and so would similarly point to an Atlantean Beakerish origin for Tutankhamun's paternal line ancestry.<br /><br />We know that L51 Beaker spread over a huge area in Europe, but it looks like we are still underestimating the extent of its reach, given what seems to be its appearance within ancient Egyptian elites and the arrival of Beaker-like pottery there. The apparently Atlantean yDNA lineages and minor Beaker-like autosomal footprints in the Mahgreb suggest to me that some L51 Beaker people likely left descendants in nomadic Mahgrebi Berber populations, whose DNA subsequently found its way into Egyptian elites.<br /><br />Given what we know about C-culture and the Medjay, a reasonable possibility is that some L51 Bell Beaker men acquired dominance in Medjay Berber populations, perhaps a little like how other L51 Bell Beaker men acquired dominance in Central European Corded Ware-descendant populations.<br /><br />It is interesting how the Egyptian Medjay appear to have initially been derided as uncivilised barbarian immigrant 'stick throwers', but whose prowess at herding and combat ended up elevating them into such high-status military and managerial positions (including guarding the royal palaces) that local Egyptians were said to have been signing up to join them. Perhaps in the course of royal bodyguarding duties, some of their DNA did find its way into pharonic lineages?Nicolas Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-39604088693426423992020-11-07T15:43:16.622-06:002020-11-07T15:43:16.622-06:00https://www.igenea.com/en/tutankhamunhttps://www.igenea.com/en/tutankhamunNicolas Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-56193060038335176352020-11-07T12:49:25.043-06:002020-11-07T12:49:25.043-06:00OK, although perhaps Thutmose resulted in C-cultur...OK, although perhaps Thutmose resulted in C-culture merging more fully into the Egyptian mainstream? We don't know whether R1b-L51 was represented in C-culture before that point, nor whether the Tutunkhamun's L51 line might have derived from the Medjay.<br /><br />Guanches, and indeed other Mahgrebis, look infused with significant autosomal contributions from pre- or early Bell Beakers. Their genetic contributions to ancient Egypt look much less significant, but I suppose these could have derived from some early-Beaker European DNA mixed into mainly Berber populations. Nicolas Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-90056547895930489472020-11-07T10:53:00.468-06:002020-11-07T10:53:00.468-06:00That'sjust referring to Thutmose's conques...That'sjust referring to Thutmose's conquest of Nubia. The C-group culture actually appeared in southern Egypt in the First Intermediate Period/Middle Kingdom.<br /><br />http://www.hierakonpolis-online.org/index.php/explore-the-nubian-cemeteriesAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17386123430230365251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-14052077207010368972020-11-07T10:22:27.791-06:002020-11-07T10:22:27.791-06:00Very interesting. According to Wikipedia, C-group ...Very interesting. According to Wikipedia, C-group culture began to be seen in Egypt at the time of Thutmose I (the first known ancestor of Tutankhamun on his paternal line), so we have Beaker-like pottery and yDNA arriving contemporaneously. The curious thing is that the culture appears to have moved in from the South rather than from Beakerish Europe to the North.Nicolas Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-90701287945331716202020-11-07T09:54:46.892-06:002020-11-07T09:54:46.892-06:00R1b-M269 has also been found in Guanches, along wi...R1b-M269 has also been found in Guanches, along with pottery similar to Bell Beaker:<br /><br />https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2016/11/millennium-canary-islander-dna-ordenez.htmlAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17386123430230365251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-32485555479062011042020-11-07T09:08:57.369-06:002020-11-07T09:08:57.369-06:00Pottery from the C-group culture in Nubia and sout...Pottery from the C-group culture in Nubia and southern Egypt has similarities to Bell Beaker pottery, and the C-group is thought to have come from berber-type saharan pastoralists... this seems a likely explanation for Beakerish R1b in the 18th dynasty. Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17386123430230365251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-90241474699926722822020-11-07T06:49:59.681-06:002020-11-07T06:49:59.681-06:00R1b-Y139456 comes out closer, I think, but it'...R1b-Y139456 comes out closer, I think, but it's a minor subclade. The point is that it looks Beakerish, rather than older African or Syrian.Nicolas Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-12371905196564471342020-11-07T05:48:24.627-06:002020-11-07T05:48:24.627-06:00I put the info from Igenea into the Nevgen predcit...I put the info from Igenea into the Nevgen predcitor and it says R1b-DF27.<br /><br />So Tut was Basque?<br /><br />https://www.igenea.com/en/tutankhamun<br />https://www.nevgen.org/Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17386123430230365251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-59948462983843881552020-11-07T05:41:56.431-06:002020-11-07T05:41:56.431-06:00My information is at https://sites.google.com/view...My information is at https://sites.google.com/view/history-and-dna/tutankhamun<br /><br />Basically, it seems the data would suggest a Beakerish origin, rather than indigenous African or Middle Eastern.Nicolas Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-68513626250922066842020-11-06T07:13:33.443-06:002020-11-06T07:13:33.443-06:00That's the first I'm hearing of any leaked...That's the first I'm hearing of any leaked STRs... any sources? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-144902142038606542020-11-05T01:42:37.595-06:002020-11-05T01:42:37.595-06:00Sorry,I've been busy at work and haven't q...Sorry,I've been busy at work and haven't quite finished typing it up yet. Don't expect too much. It's just a few extra pieces of data that leave us with as many questions as they do answers.Nicolas Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-30026986255137139642020-11-04T15:37:25.179-06:002020-11-04T15:37:25.179-06:00so are you going to let us in on the secret?so are you going to let us in on the secret?Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17386123430230365251noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-19384259856390141932020-11-02T03:24:27.960-06:002020-11-02T03:24:27.960-06:00I have discovered some information that would appe...I have discovered some information that would appear both to associate Tutankhamun's DNA with early Beakers and to substantiate its likely presence in North Africa. It's a little complicated, so I might try to attach it as a link when I get the chance.Nicolas Paulnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-58023509060657818692020-10-30T15:36:45.552-05:002020-10-30T15:36:45.552-05:00a,
Quite possible they were part of a larger expa...a,<br /><br />Quite possible they were part of a larger expansion from the interior Balkan coast as the Philistines were later. Being that Caphtor mentioned in the bible was possible Crete, and as you've linked Crete having immigration from most likely the Cetina Culture. But I am also curious as to the Western "paternity" of the Philistines mentioned in the Bible as being descended from Mizraim, which suggests a connection to Egypt. Of course that brings to mind groups such as the Hyskos and others in the Western Desert, or even the connections between Southern Spain the Upper Levant.<br /><br />Thanks for linkingbellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-47646389964794368012020-10-30T13:36:53.200-05:002020-10-30T13:36:53.200-05:00V88 is in Egyptians, Berbers, Nubians, Kanembu, To...V88 is in Egyptians, Berbers, Nubians, Kanembu, Toubou and Fulani... not just Chadic speakers... and it came from Europe.Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17386123430230365251noreply@blogger.com