tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post7766402795480314912..comments2024-02-07T23:25:07.429-06:00Comments on Bell Beaker Blogger: Beaker Language and a Badass Reconstructionbellbeakerbloggerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-66651836984268574262019-09-01T11:04:07.732-05:002019-09-01T11:04:07.732-05:00I think the interaction of Groups East of the Rhin...I think the interaction of Groups East of the Rhine and South of the Low Countries with broader France will throw some light upon the Iberian Issue. "How does the Seine-Oise-Marne Culture relate to this ?" For example. <br /><br />How many survivors of Plague, Famine and War reached Southern Europe and especially the Iberian Peninsula prior to Steppe migrations into Central Europe ? How many different Languages did they speak ? <br /><br />With 3000 years of relative isolation between Farmer groups migrating into Central Europe and their relatives migrating along a Southern Route before the Bronze Age, there must at least have been more than one Neolithic language. Were there any Cucuteni Tripolye survivors who ended up in Italy or Iberia or were all of them to stubborn to acknowledge that the Titanic was sinking ?<br /><br />Ric Hernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15069642772317562249noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-86494932889242955942019-03-28T09:53:01.746-05:002019-03-28T09:53:01.746-05:00@Andrew thanks for your reply. You present a lot ...@Andrew thanks for your reply. You present a lot of information and I feel one of your sentiments is that you find the idea of semitic influence in Celtic languages intriguing, but also see the possibility of other explanations. One thought I had that I don't think is covered much is the potential influence of the cardial ware people's language leaving an influence in the atlantic people's language. I believe they came from anatolia originally and expanded out to include Iberia, so I feel it may be possible they left their influence in the region. Their language might have been a proto- semitic language, or something similar. I do realize that most language histories don't go beyond about 6000 years ago whether using writing or the comparative method. None the less, the cardial ware element still might have been a factor. If you have any thoughts or information on that, I would appreciate it very much. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09964403762666068490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-77513445386786199772019-03-26T14:28:49.474-05:002019-03-26T14:28:49.474-05:00"You have a romantic vision of the Bb culture..."You have a romantic vision of the Bb culture that I share and it is true that they probably spoke the same language, but I do not think it was Indo-European." I've long advocated this view, although I am less certain of it now in light of recent ancient DNA. Still it certainly isn't ruled out. Either approach has serious problems with it.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-22604566571339172932019-03-26T14:25:42.524-05:002019-03-26T14:25:42.524-05:00Also it may be just me, but I think that the BB pa...Also it may be just me, but I think that the BB package from the steppe brought metallurgy, but less horsemanship than the CWC, more archery, and more cattle husbandry. This may help us to figure out what was distinctive in source and means of arrival between CWC and BB from the steppe.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-71683666269777231522019-03-26T14:23:20.588-05:002019-03-26T14:23:20.588-05:00continued . . . "I think that the likely init...continued . . . "I think that the likely initial pull" I mean "push". And in addition to conquest and inequality you have better intrinsic physical selective fitness (possibly LP was key to fertility in women and to disease resistance in times of near famine), and better technology and a culture better adapted to the nasty climates of the Neolithic-Bronze Age transition period. Tech isn't just tech. It is adapting your culture to use tech to its fullest.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-59219788510342679042019-03-26T14:18:52.240-05:002019-03-26T14:18:52.240-05:00There is hard evidence that non-BB members of BB h...There is hard evidence that non-BB members of BB households got second pick of food and were less healthy than BB members of the same households driving infant and child mortality rates, and BB members had more lactose tolerance than non-BB members. So, conquest and inequality.<br /><br />The men who are phylogentically the direct ancestors of Western European BB Y-DNA R1b were Steppe Yamnaya males who vanished not far in time in the Southern Steppe from the arrival of the BB in Europe, because they were replaced in the Souther Steppe by CWC clade of Y-DNA R1a men. So there is the pull (which may have just been an imminent threat and not actually genocidal in effect at the time); I think that the likely initial pull was to the mineral resources of Southern Portugal (esp. tin and copper) which they could exploit better than the locals that then was amped up as first wave Western European Neolithic cultures collapses in ways that BB tech from the steppe could manage better in the conditions that first farmers couldn't. Many expedition to new lands with women already in them are male dominated.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-88263815484149054032019-03-26T14:05:40.771-05:002019-03-26T14:05:40.771-05:00I'm impressed (in part due to the very polishe...I'm impressed (in part due to the very polished presentation, I admit, but also on the merits and because it is consistent in every respect it mentions things I know with mainstream thinking on these points and because it acknowledges the conjectural nature of the hypothesis). Basically, he is restating Venneman's Afro-Asiatic substrate in Maritime Europe hypothesis and this hypothesis is even more compelling when the actual history of Punic typonyms and commerce in the region is known. https://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com/2016/12/phoenicianpunic-names-in-britain-and.html although the timing isn't a perfect match on that front:<br /><br />"Several key points emerge from the above summary of burial sites producing oxygen isotope evidence indicative of the presence of people from North Africa and southern Iberia in Britain between c. 1100 BC and c. AD 800 . . . which are highlighted here by way of a conclusion. First and foremost, it is important to note that at least some migrants from these areas appear to have been present in Britain during all periods from the Late Bronze Age onwards. Whilst the presence of people from North Africa in Roman Britain is to a large degree unsurprising, as they are otherwise attested via literary and epigraphic sources, the fact that it can be shown that people from these areas were very probably also present in Bronze Age, Iron Age and early medieval Britain is a point of some considerable interest. "<br /><br />Thus, the North African presence is post-Bell Beaker, although roughly contemporaneous with Urnfield and/or Celtic based on traditional linguistic and archaeological measures.<br /><br />A key fact is that deep grammar tends to be less easily borrowed than words and the Celtic-Afro-Asiatic links are more in deep grammar and less in lexical content although a few links a proposed. <br /><br />A theory could be that EEF was an offshoot of Semitic, which in the right part of Anatolia isn't so implausible, although it begs the question of why this isn't seen elsewhere (could CP Neolithic be Afro-Asiatic and LBK be perhaps proto-Caucasian?) The question of Basque to Afro-Asiatic ties matters too. See http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2018/04/north-african-neolithic-was-influenced.html and http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2015/09/vasco-nubian.html<br /><br />Another theory could be that Afro-Asiatic culture was high prestige and maybe even a key symbiotic culture with Celtic and hence its influence - with the Afro-Asiatic influence being post-Bell Beaker as the archaeology supports.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-6605496280317773642019-03-26T13:50:27.454-05:002019-03-26T13:50:27.454-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-20708283072536795842019-03-24T13:18:32.345-05:002019-03-24T13:18:32.345-05:00I don't know if i am allowed to post links, bu...I don't know if i am allowed to post links, but if you go to Youtube and look for the Langfocus channel, and search for "Strange Similarities Between Celtic & Semitic Languages!", you will find a video germane to this topic. He just posted it less than an hour ago, and it made me think of this blog post, so I had to share. I will post the link here anyway. Let me know if I am not supposed to post links: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAAmwtdP1bEAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09964403762666068490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-20900277611625328772019-03-23T11:37:41.093-05:002019-03-23T11:37:41.093-05:00Diego, I'll give you this, that the situation ...Diego, I'll give you this, that the situation in the Middle Neolithic may explode a lot of people's heads if Michelsberge elite warriors, not the peasants thrown in pits, but elite start coming back P312. I've speculated many times about this and a number of archaeologists have discussed this intriguing possibility (Volder Heyd concerning intrusive steppe elements in the Western TRB groups and others). It is possible that they had already began expanding within Western Europe in the second half of the 4th millennium, but their origins are likely intrusive anyway, coming ultimately from the Western Black Sea in the area of Romania IMO. So their profile might not be "steppic" per se, but something more along the lines of a hunter/farmer mix. This also matters to the formation of the SGC which is actually a cultural mixture of these groups rather than a purely intrusive groups.<br />Anyhow, if your point is that the process of P312 overtaking Iberia is more complex than invading Continental Beakers, I suppose that could be debated. But it also seems that P312 is a newcomer to Iberia and superseded all other lineages very quickly. It appears to have happened in the EMBAbellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-14363229600514647352019-03-23T11:23:04.022-05:002019-03-23T11:23:04.022-05:00@Ryan, "The Basques are living Bell Beaker pe...@Ryan, "The Basques are living Bell Beaker peoples and they don't speak IE"<br />Maybe, but you could say regionally a number of peoples are largely descended from the migrants.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-42420738298913606082019-03-23T10:03:34.815-05:002019-03-23T10:03:34.815-05:00The problem is that most people think of the Basqu...The problem is that most people think of the Basques because everyone knows that we speak a non-Indo-European language, but it is true that absolutely all cultures of the Iberian Bronze Age are R1b-P312 (EL Argar, Motillas, Cogotas, Atlantic Bronze, Pyrenean Bronze), and that their descendants of the Iron Age also spoke non-Indo-European languages. We no longer enter into speculations but into unquestionable evidence (Iberian and Tartesian were not Indo-European languages). That genetic continuity means that our BB ancestors did not speak IE. The only possibility of speaking the language of the steppes is that only P312 men (hunters, merchants) would enter the Iberian societies and abandon their language (ie forgetting conquests, violence etc).<br /><br />Many people are wrong about how BB culture entered the large chalcolithic villages of Andalucia and Portugal. It is all much simpler, in the tombs only it is observed that BB pottery and some other object related to the BB package begins to appear, but, there is an evident continuity in the villages, there are no wars, fires or destructions, simply the pottery is incorporates as a commercial novelty. And you know that the descendants of those men of Los Millares was the culture of El Argar 100% R1b. With which, to solve the mystery we must continue analyzing deposits between 3,000-2,500 BC, only in Los Millares there are hundreds of skeletons waiting.<br /><br />The theory of the Kurgans is becoming more complicated and surreal, not only R1bL51 / p312 do not exist in the steppes, now it turns out that R1bP312 were hidden in the CWC, and in addition not only did they hijack the BBC, but they also hijacked the languages of the regions where they were installed. Everything is surreal. Logic tells me that P312 is Western, that he lived in some French region or in the Alps or Pyrenees (because of the obvious brachycephaly), that he descends from some European Neolithic culture (Baalberge, Michelsberg ...) and that he spoke some kind of Neolithic language related to Anatolia and the Caucasus, of which the Euzkera has remained as testimony.<br /><br /><br />Gaskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17412266725782255586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-17789848472237334862019-03-23T08:02:58.649-05:002019-03-23T08:02:58.649-05:00@ Bernard
''Northern Beaker'' arr...@ Bernard<br /><br />''Northern Beaker'' arrived in Meseta by 2500 BC, and Los Millares had already collapsed by 2200 BC. The overall shift depends on how you approach it, arguably for a more local perspective, with modelling with more proximal sources (e.g. Mesetan Beaker and the Local Chalcolithic), one might get <br /><br />Iberia_Southeast_BA <br />Beaker_NorthIberia 61.5%<br />Iberia_Southeast_CA 38.5%<br />d 1.3%<br /><br /> Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-62342795915744771102019-03-23T04:50:24.073-05:002019-03-23T04:50:24.073-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-40222476664954529862019-03-23T04:49:28.020-05:002019-03-23T04:49:28.020-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-48880811274568006022019-03-23T03:29:02.960-05:002019-03-23T03:29:02.960-05:00I don’t think it really matters whether we’re loo...I don’t think it really matters whether we’re looking at 90% replacement (England) or 50% (Iberia) what matters is the process and big picture- and that’s the same no matter whether one looks at Britain, France or Iberia <br /><br />Given that El Agar was ruled by R1b males; the argument that they adopted the language of the surviving enslaved females is becoming a little comical Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-31862506938991105822019-03-23T03:25:18.635-05:002019-03-23T03:25:18.635-05:00It makes sense that first-born males stayed on the...It makes sense that first-born males stayed on the farm working & inheriting it and marrying a local female, while the second- & third-born males would leave to seek their fortune with kindred souls armed and able to adapt to new places & tongues. But why the beakers? Ritual? Did it carry an ember from one's parent's home fire? Did it hold one's ashes, or placenta, or was it a water bottle with a (birch-bark or cork-oak?) lid?DDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-67761810811017997162019-03-23T03:11:43.828-05:002019-03-23T03:11:43.828-05:00Per photos, wasn't the "wristguard" ...Per photos, wasn't the "wristguard" actually a brace counterweight, to keep it from swivelling during fast arm movements? Are the button clasps attested? Ryan North (How To Invent Everything) claims that while sewn buttons are ancient, buttonholes are quite recent, so the clasps are logical precursors, but I didn't know they were attested. Great post!DDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-38356313158446387632019-03-23T02:37:11.604-05:002019-03-23T02:37:11.604-05:00It is interesting to compare the arrival of Bell B...It is interesting to compare the arrival of Bell Beakers in the British Isles and in Iberia. In the British Isles the transition is brutal around 2500 BC., the replacement of population is major with 90% of the ancestry of the population coming from the continent. In Iberia, there is no real population replacement, but a genetic mix between local population and the Bell Beakers coming from the northeast. For me the most likely explanation for this important difference comes from the large difference in size between the British pre-Bell Beaker population and the Iberian pre-Bell Beaker population . In the British Isles the population was to be small and the newcomers easily replaced the local population. In the Iberian Peninsula the population was to be much larger and it took five centuries for the Bell Beakers to assert themselves and to make the local paternal lineages disappear. This was done by integrating a large part of the local Iberian maternal ancestry. This process has had to be different from one region to another and it is therefore not surprising that some regions of the Iberian Peninsula have kept their pre-Bell Beaker language according to the process of assimilation of the steppe ancestry in the Iberian population.Bernardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12315331235019626444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-5188701941226250932019-03-23T01:25:32.702-05:002019-03-23T01:25:32.702-05:00Yah it's not just a legacy. The Basques are li...Yah it's not just a legacy. The Basques are living Bell Beaker peoples and they don't speak IE. That falsifies your hypothesis.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-57281349255417571942019-03-22T21:58:12.701-05:002019-03-22T21:58:12.701-05:00The Iron Age samples from attested Iberian-speakin...The Iron Age samples from attested Iberian-speaking sites in southern Spain are very similar to Basques, and also practically straight up genetic descendants of Iberian and even southern French Beakers, with a ~100% frequency of R1b-P312.<br />Davidskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04637918905430604850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-69791388782133077672019-03-22T21:40:34.090-05:002019-03-22T21:40:34.090-05:00Thanks man,Thanks man,bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-20805826390877355672019-03-22T21:40:06.477-05:002019-03-22T21:40:06.477-05:00I think the isolation of Basque country and the su...I think the isolation of Basque country and the surrounds contributed to a regression that was unique to this region. This is just a guess, but I think deep water sailing and bigger boats contributed to a scenario where sea traffic bypassed the bay and for later Empires, the region was too difficult to take, or of little strategic or taxing value for the costs of war, infrastructure.<br />There are obviously modern IE loan words into Basque, but there are apparently IE loan words that are also very old. If a significant portion are pre-Italic and pre-Celtic, then maybe the situation is not so black and white. The Beaker legacy in Basque will be unique to it, whatever that is.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-7759271224636697892019-03-22T21:30:43.295-05:002019-03-22T21:30:43.295-05:00Oi, show some respect for the ancestors! It's ...Oi, show some respect for the ancestors! It's clear from the Bell Beakers' artifacts that they had style. Bad ass but with class. <br /><br />I'm loving how all this is coming together. Obviously lots of questions, but the Bell Beakers are "coming alive" so to speak as a real people, a civilization. Great stuff BBB. Cheers.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04569719259695655889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6886680068187530519.post-14665820965478728832019-03-22T20:05:21.195-05:002019-03-22T20:05:21.195-05:00Sorry, i meant "tough nut to crack", mea...Sorry, i meant "tough nut to crack", meaning it is a difficult problem. I try to re-word things and not get too folksy because I know that a lot of people read the blog through the translator.<br />I agree that most people didn't ride around on horses, probably just the elite and elite warriors as in later history.bellbeakerbloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01848982163843593127noreply@blogger.com