You may recall a lot of uninformed jerking regarding Eastern Domain Bell Beakers last year. A few Beakers were identified as Z2103 and had elevated steppe components, so a few deep thinkers took that as direct and conclusive evidence for a founding source of Beaker heritage. I poured cold water on that and detailed analysis added more cold water.
Here's the dig paper, "La sepulture campaniforme de City-Salsogne 'La Bouche a Vessel' (Aisne) by Hachem et al, 2011.
Laure Salanova describes in "Behind the Warriors Bell Beakers and Identities in Atlantic Europe.."
You can see where CBV95 falls below. He's the pink diamond at the bottom of the upper Steppe cluster. Then look to the graph on the right. Now look at the Y-chromosomal diversity through the ages. As in Britain, Iberia and elsewhere, we have almost complete supersession of males lineages. Wow again.
 |
| "Tarim woman with legs drawn up" |
We have a Paris Basin Bell Beaker with typical male lineage buried with an AOO pot and a big French knife. He's certainly the son of a number of Dutch immigrant ancestors, and given his age, we are left with no other reasonable choice other than to presume the majority of his steppe-like ancestors were PFBs. And then he's buried in a manner typical of the Steppe Cultures, like Khvalynsk-Yamnaya-Abashevo, supine-legs-drawn (as above). And then there is his profile; makes it seem non-random.
As his maternal lineage is J2a1a1, we could probably discount the possibility that his mother was a recent immigrant from the steppe who married a Western man, thus allowing him rites in a supine-knees drawn up configuration after his mother's family. In fact, the reverse would seem more likely and we might suspect that this orientation was more common among tribes of the SGC than available evidence is able to produce.
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| "The French Freak" CBV95 |
About half his "very large wooden grave" was destroyed by a backhoe, but having looked at the drawings for a while, is it possible he was buried in a wagon? It's a large rectangular structure that almost looks like the shadow of a wagon-plus-axle-hubs-and-yoke with the semi-solid (?) wheels removed. Maybe not, but the upper layers are typical of many Corded Ware Culture ring ditches, with some sort of memorial shrine erected on top of the mound and a kind of palisade around.
Laure Salanova describes in "Behind the Warriors Bell Beakers and Identities in Atlantic Europe.."
"The two AOO graves from the Paris Basin (Jablines and Ciry-Salsogne) are dated from 2570-2450 cal BC (Salanova 2011). All of the characteristics of these graves refer to foreign burial practices, from their architecture to their grave goods, which find comparisons in the Netherlands. According to archaeometric analyses, the AOO beakers were all produced locally, despite their typology indicative of an exogenous affinity. These graves are geographically located on the road that linked the Grand-Pressigny flint workshops to the Lower RhineValley, where daggers and blades imported from the Grand- Pressigny region have been recorded and were frequently included as grave goods associated with AOO beakers (Lanting & Waals 1976; Delcourt-Vlaeminck 2004). These three graves could therefore reflect an ethnic identity, including foreign traders in charge of another exchange network, linking the Atlantic coast to the Rhine Valley. This network did not remain thereafter; importations stopped at approximately 2400 cal BC, probably being replaced by exchanges of copper daggers."
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| his funerary beaker via ASAVA |
So what does that mean? You may remember the "Fellow from Twello" in the Netherlands. As Laure Salanova discusses, the classic "Dutch model" and it's variations either don't work or have problems, but there is a Dutch something. "Bell Beaker Chronology in Northern France" (Laure Salanova, 2011)
You can see where CBV95 falls below. He's the pink diamond at the bottom of the upper Steppe cluster. Then look to the graph on the right. Now look at the Y-chromosomal diversity through the ages. As in Britain, Iberia and elsewhere, we have almost complete supersession of males lineages. Wow again.
And now, something that really pisses me off. Seriously. How the Dutch destroyed civilization.
We have to approach this with caution:
ReplyDelete1. The yDNA nomenclatures look muddled, appearing to indicate that R1b-M269 (R1b1a1a2) was itself the victim of total population replacement by R1b-V1636 (R1b1a1b) during the Bronze Age.
2. As Samuel Andrews has noted, some have claimed the autosomal models in this study to be wrong.
3. Even if they are not wrong, these models are relatively uninformative, using comparatives that are too distant in time (Goyet, Villabruna) and geogrpahy (Anatolia, Steppe) to be of the greatest direct relevance.
However, there is a sample that would fit perfectly with the autosomals reported for CBV95. It is LN1 (an outlier within North Latvian Corded Ware 2,883 BC), which would also yield 100% Yamnaya with the modelling approach used in the study. Its DNA profile then crops up in subsequent samples across the Baltic (most heavily in Sweden and Denmark, but also in Poland and Germany). As it was found in Northern Latvia and fits better with Siberian, I would say it most likely has little direct relation to the Pontic Steppe. We can see from isotope analysis that the Baltic was a meeting point for various migratory peoples, and it would not be surprising to me if Northern French CBV95 were an individual of Baltic immediate origin. It looks too early to be of continental/German Corded Ware origin, where I suspect the mixing occurred at a later stage.
If the yDNA nomenclature were clarified as R1b-L51, it would fit with a pattern seen across Europe of L51 outliers fathering whole populations usurped from other yDNA haplogroups, regardless of whether these populations were European Neolithic or Steppic-looking.
Yeah, Yamanaya has become a bad proxy for Steppe, and geographical Steppe with Steppe component. Hopefully we can see some better models, especially ones that can clarify the source of his HG ancestry.
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ReplyDeleteInteresting they say CVP95's cemetary is located between the source of the French Neolithic Daggers and Dutch Corded Ware.
ReplyDeleteAs, Neolithic French daggers imported into Dutch Corded Ware may have been the inspiration for Bell Beaker Copper Daggers.
"As Laure Salanova discusses, the classic "Dutch model" and it's variations either don't work or have problems, but there is a Dutch something. "Bell Beaker Chronology in Northern France" (Laure Salanova, 2011)"
ReplyDeleteYes, good t see there are hints in archaeology Indo European Bell Beaker expanded out of the Netherlands. DNA certainly gives strong hints for it.
You mention a flurry of activity last year that you helped rebut. But the link you give for your rebuttal is from 2017.
ReplyDeleteNot at all saying you're wrong, but maybe you could clarify. Perhaps the controversy, and the cold water, were actually 3 years ago?
Time flies I guess. Three years ago!
DeleteI have just analysed Dutch Bell Beaker samples. They look heavily Danish Neolithic - like Bavarian Bell Beaker without so much of a Danubian element. They are highly uniform, and show little difference between male and female. The male samples look slightly more strongly Danish Neolithic, and show greater diversity within their R1b yDNA phylogenies. To me, this is all suggestive of somewhere between Netherlands and Denmark being the direct source of Central European Bell Beaker culture and yDNA.
ReplyDeleteI still suspect that CVP95 was an outsider of North Eastern descent picked up by early Beaker folk somewhere in the Baltic.
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ReplyDeleteNice post! Although Im couldnt ascertain what has been proved or disproved in your earlier post?
ReplyDeleteIm aware the big theory on the blogoshere is that BB 'derives' from CWC, possibly a somewhat loaded term.
Ill get back to the French AOC_beaker burial later, because it's too late to be relevant for earlier proto-BB. Rather, it is the Swiss data which is important here - the 2 R1ab-M269 burials dating to ~ 2700 BC. What they show is that early M269 arrived in the west Alipine region, and its burial styles are in fact different to early CWC (N-S inhumation on side, rather than W-E on back). He had high steppe ancestry, opening possibility of direct arrivlal from somehwere in western steppe.
So there are subtle differences, not to mention the obviously different routes (no R1b-M269 whatsoever in early CWC from Baltic or Scandinavia).
CBV95 is interesting. AOC beakers are a product of the entire Rhine region, not just Netherlands. They are found as far as northern Iberia and northern Italy, Aosta, etc. Similarly, G-P daggers reached SW Germany too, not just netherlands. The burial position of this guy was East-to-West, not the classical CWC-style of W-E.
For the sharp eye, the plot thickens, methinks
Outside the Netherlands AOO/AOC are usually considered Beaker, as CBV95. So you are correct that date is way too late to be proto-anything, but what I'm interested in is that he's definitely from an immigrant family whether or not it was his generation or several previous. (I didn't look to see if he has any isotope study). But let's say he is a 3rd generation immigrant, that's getting back there in which corded beakers can be shown to be moving out.
DeleteIberian corded beakers are especially interesting where and when the show up and there can still be some sort of Ruckstrom scenario as so much of the Beaker character and gravity is Iberian. I hope to get to the Swiss paper soon. I haven't read it but I've read what others have said and it looks to have more discoveries.
Campaniforme: chronology, pottery, and contexts of a long term phenomenon in the Portuguese Douro Basin-Maria de Jesus Sanches and Maria Helena Barbosa (diciembre 2.018)-
DeleteWe should also note that the incised Bell Beakers do not occur in isolation, but always in association with the Maritime group. Corded/zoned Maritime (CZM) vessels were registered only in one case on the coast (Forca ditched enclosure) (Bettencourt/Luz 2013), and AOC in one case (Castelo Velho F. N. monumental walled precinct) (Jorge 2002a)
*Iberia-Campaniforme Cordado-AOC
Del Campaniforme Cordado (AOC) en el Noroeste Hispánico, un extraño e inesperado invitado-José Suárez Otero (2.011)-
AOC samples-Iberia-
A Fontenla, Moaña (Pontevedra, Galicia), Arca dos Penedos (Galicia), As Gándaras de Budiño (Porriño, Pontevedra), monte dos Marxos (Rodeiro, Pontevedra), Castelho Velho (Vila Nova de Foz, Coa, Portugal) y Porto Torrao (Ferreira de Alentejo, Portugal)-
Túmulo de Cotogrande, Galicia (2.862-2.466 BC)-2.664 BC
A Corded mixed Bell Beaker vase at the monumental enclosure of Forca- (Maia, North of Portugal)-We refer to the “settlement” or enclosure of Porto Torrão (Ferreira do Alentejo, Southwest Portugal) inside a Chalcolithic level dated to the 1stquarter of the 3rd millennium BC (Cardoso & Soares 1990/1992; Cardoso 2000); to the walled enclosure of the Castelo Velho de Freixo de Numão (Vila Nova de Foz Côa) in a range of use from the beginning to the third quarter of the 3rd millennium BC (S. Jorge 2002; S. Jorge & Rubin 2002) and the walled enclosure of Castanheiro do Vento (Vila Nova de Foz Côa),
Porto Torrão (Ferreira do Alentejo)- 2.740 BC
An All over corded Bell Beaker in Northern Portugal-Castelho Velho de Freixo de Numao (Vila Nova de Foz Coa)- Susana Oliveira (Porto, november, 2001)- (2.877-2.495 BC-2.686 BC)-
Vaso campaniforme cordado de la cueva de Amalda II (Cestona, Guipúzcoa)-Angel Armendariz (1.988)-
+ Yacimiento del Túmulo de la Sima (Miño de Medinaceli, Soria)- Datación 2.365 BC-
+ Los vasos Campaniformes Cordados con decoración interna de Villa Filomena (Villarreal, Castellón)-
Spanish archaeologists have always considered AOC as an allochthonous style but the dates in Iberia are very old. In any case, it seems clear that it has a maritime dispersion-Atlantic Coast of Portugal and Galicia, Mediterranean coast (Villa Filomena), with some cases inland Castilian Plateau (La Sima-Soria)- La Pijotilla (Extremadura, 2,700 BC)
@ Sam
ReplyDelete''Neolithic French daggers imported into Dutch Corded Ware may have been the inspiration for Bell Beaker Copper Daggers.''
They are completely different.
Bell Beaker daggers derive from Yamnaya, and the Black-Sea - Caucasus region
BB daggers derive from Yamnaya?
ReplyDeleteCan you tell us what your sources are or what you base that statement on?
There are not two R1b-M269 cases in Switzerland but three Neolithic farmers buried in dolmens - two are dated 2750-2730 BC and have hardly any steppe ancestry and the third is said to have 70% CWC-ancestry
The mitochondrial haplogroups of both Aesch25 and the French sample are typical of western farmers, so it is absolutely impossible for CBV95 to be 100% Yamnaya. This is one more mistake of the many that geneticists are making in an attempt to justify the tragedy of not having found L51/P312 in the steppes. The autosomal models are a disaster
Yeah CVB95 is important, but it is more important the other French BB G2a with a 28% of Yamnaya ancestry (theoretically)- We already have this lineage in BB sites of Spain, Germany and France, and we also have I2a, H2, Z2103 and R1b-v88 in other countries, which shows that the BB culture was not genetically homogeneous - The only lineage that has not yet appeared is curiously R1a, typical of the CWC, despite the new Kurganist obsession with linking L51/P312 to that culture
Nicolas, it would be interesting to know which samples of Danish Neolithic you have used and the percentages of ancestry. We have more than 150 models of European BBs classified by data and more than 80% of them can be modeled with Iberian Neolithic-Chalcolithic (5-50%)- The Bb culture in Iberia lasted 1.000 years and dozens of migrations took place- The Bbs crossed the Pyrenees in both directions many times and in my opinion they were the first thalassocracy in the history of mankind
ReplyDeleteAs for the Yamnaya ancestral models, they make less and less sense. Fürtwangler published more than 25 European Neolithic farmers who theoretically had percentages of that autosomal composition (One case in Scotland-3,000 BC-48%) and one case of P312 Bb in Iberia with 4.6% which is absolutely irrelevant.
On the other hand we also have other male lineages with steppe ancestry percentages which shows that this issue was not exclusive to R1b-M269/P312. The real reason for the diffusion of this autosomal marker was the female migrations (much more important than Kristiansen and colleagues say) and of course the exogamy
Regarding ATP3 you are right it is R1b-M269 without any doubt, and its link with the Balkans seems evident.We have hundreds of skeletons from the first phase of the Chalcolithic (3,200-2,700 BC) that can be analyzed to check whether this lineage had genetic continuity in Iberia or became extinct and then reappeared with the Bbs . The sites of Los Millares, La Pijotilla, Marroquies Bajos, and some in the north of Spain and the Castilian plateau such as the valley of Las Higueras (Toledo) are important. In this site there are individual Pre BB burials with flint daggers and then BB burials with grave goods typical of that culture.The Kurganist explanation of the history of the P312 lineage is simplistic and there are still many doubts to be resolved
There are two issues that all professional and amateur geneticists should consider
ReplyDelete1- It is very important to understand that the ancestral models can be used to achieve the results that are intended previously
2. It is essential to understand the archaeological sites where the BBs have been located.
All P312 in Spain are linked to Ciempozuelos pottery and the typical BB package (wristguards, halberds, daggers, awls, V perforated buttons) and as everybody knows that ceramic style is exclusive to the Iberian Peninsula (and some sites in the south of France, Sicily, Liguria, Sardinia)-However we have I2a buried in the same sites (Humanejos) with International style, which shows that the Portuguese BBs reached the Castilian plateau following the course of the Tajo river and there they met the Ciempozuelos Mesetans
@ Gaska
ReplyDelete''BB daggers derive from Yamnaya?''
The idea of a dagger was used widely for status, but the BB style tanged daggers prototype are from Yamnaya , and ultimately Majkop origin.
''There are not two R1b-M269 cases in Switzerland but three Neolithic farmers buried in dolmens -''
Only 2 were analysed; and both have steppe ancestry, within a variation expected for individuals with differing familial histories. Now, your error is calling them Neolithic farmers, because it is widely known that BB re-used older Neolithic domens, caves, Megaliths, etc. In this regard pay attention to the supplement of the paper and obtain collateral research on the site history
Ultimately, given all the data we have across western Europe, one would hope that you can move with the data and accept that R1b-M269 isn't from Neolithic western Europe
If you analyze the first L51/P312 linked to the BBC that we have to date, you can find some keys of how the BB culture was extended and its relation with P312-
ReplyDelete1-Asch25. Burgachisee, Auvernier-Neolithic dolmens-NO grave goods relates to BBC or CWC
2-Osterhofen (Bavaria-2.542 BC)-Grave 3 contained a skeleton of an adult male in left hocker position with the head towards the north, accompanied by a Bell Beaker
3-CVB95 (2.513 BC)-This skeleton is not exactly in the Corded Ware position because Corded Ware men are on the right, and the head toward the west. This man in on the back, the knees upward and the head toward the east-Grave goods-An AOC beaker, a Pressigny flint dagger and a bow-shape pendant
4-Yacimiento de El Hundido (Monasterio de Rodilla, Burgos (2.434 BC)-*EHU002- HapY-R1b-P312- Mit-K1a4a1-BB burial-Oval pit in the corridor of a dolmen-Male+45 years, 1,85 m, fetal position in right lateral decubitus and with NO-SE orientation-Grave goods- Ciempozuelos style vessel, copper dagger, V perforated button-
5-Szczytna (Poland-2.420 BC)-Pcw110-HapY-R1b-L23-Mit-T1-CWC-Niche grave-The border between the entrance, the corridor and the niche were well-discernible, which indicates the use of some organic barrier-The child (5-6 years) was probably lying on the right side-Behind the skull from the SW side bones of the rodent (Rodentia), snail shells of Bradybaena fruticum, and a fragment of the long bone of an animal of the size of cattle were found
6-Oostwoud (Frisia-The Netherlands-2.406 BC)-*I5478-HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-X2b4-BB burial-Burial Mound, single inhumation-Van der Waals-Beakers with maritime decoration
That is
1-The first 3 cases have nothing to do with the BBc or the CWC, and were buried in Neolithic dolmens 2-Four belong to the BBC and one to the CWC-The former have absolutely western mits haps, and the Polish has a steppe mitochondrial lineage
3-Obviously there are G2a and V88 BBs as old or older than these P312 cases
4-Despite the fact that the four cases belonging to the BB culture are practically contemporary, its grave goods belong to the regional variants of that culture. Osterhofen (German BB)-CVB95 (AOC style), El Hundido (Ciempozuelos style), Oostwoud (Maritime style)-
Is this data compatible with an invasion or massive migration of L51/P312 from the steppes, or is it correct to think that the BBC was a CWC offshot? No way-there are only 3 possible explanations
A-P312 moved from Germany in small groups of men (explorers, merchants, hunters, miners) or perhaps in small family groups that when colonizing new territories quickly mixed with indigenous women and adopted local customs (for example when they arrived in Spain they adopted the Ciempozuelos style that is documented in Castilian deposits 200 years before the dating of El Hundido)
B-That these men invented various ceramic styles in a very short period of time- Strange because ceramics were a woman's thing (sorry if it sounds sexist)
C-R1b-L51 / P312 would be a relatively abundant lineage in Western Europe from the year 3,000 BC onwards and developed in the different regions that inhabited various modalities of BB culture
@MH 82-
ReplyDeleteSorry but in Iberia we do not have to look for an explanation in Yamnaya or Maykop to understand the evolution of copper daggers from the oldest to the most developed models- We have deposits with all kinds of daggers. In Iberia all BB package objects existed previously (V perforated buttons, textiles, wristguards, daggers, awls). Furthermore, Iberian metallurgy is totally different from that of the rest of Europe in its production chain.
No, there are 3 swiss neolithic farmers and it is not a mistake to call them that because two of them (Aesch 25 and Auvernier) are buried in collective dolmens that as you know was a custom of the western megalithic culture- They are too old to be considered Bbs and although it is true that the Bbs reused dolmens this is only an evident sign of cultural continuity not of rupture.
Regarding Burgaschisee was also analyzed by Furtwängler and was barely 20-30% of Yamnaya ancestry-We don't know his hap Mit but I suspect it would be typical of the steppes- In any case Furtwängler's models are a disaster because they have erroneously or intentionally inflated the percentages of steppe ancestry. This is very easy to do
I am not a fortune teller and I do not know what the origin of M269 and L51 is, but you have an M269 in Smyadovo (4,500 BC) prior to any population movement from the steppes. You also have VK531-R1b-P297 in Norway 2,400 BC with zero steppe ancestry and plenty of L754 and P297 WHGs that do not originate from the steppes. So time will tell where M269 and L51 were born, certainly not from the Yamnaya culture or the CWC.
It is important to understand that this lineage suffered a bottleneck of thousands of years and later a massive founder effect in Western Europe. Then finding those haplogroups is going to be a difficult task
While there are autosomal similarities between Northern Bell Beaker and Corded Ware, my modelling does not detect substantial genetic transfer between the two until both collapse and CW autosomals are heavily subsumed into BB paternal lineages.
ReplyDeleteI cannot comment on the Swiss samples, as I have not seen the data. Have the subclades of M269 been revealed?
The Danish Neolithic sample I used is Kyndelose. My multi-component fits for P312 Bavarian BB show 27% Kyndelose and P312 Dutch BB 67% Kyndelose. (German Corded Ware shows only 2% Kyndelose, despite both having R1a-M417 yDNA.)
I model Kyndelose itself as 5% Iberian Chalcolithic, presumably acquired through the same route as a contemporaneous Swedish sample at Gokhem which I model as 43% Iberian Chalcolithic. Neither of these samples have Beakerish or CW attributes as far as I know, but they help us to date mixing between Iberian pre-BB people and Baltic pre-BB people to as early as 2750 BC (before BB really flourished in Northern and Central Europe). This demonstrates a vector by which Iberian cultural traits could have transferred into N/C Europe. I suppose it is possible that paternal lineages could also have transferred along with them, but as far as I am aware there is insufficient data in the public domain to determine this one way or the other.
*ATP3 (3.389 BC)-El Portalón, Atapuerca-HapY-R1b-M269- Mit-K1a2b-Gunther et al 2.015
ReplyDelete*MX304 (2.734 BC)-Auvernier-HapY-R1b1a2a1a- Mit-No coverage-A.Furtwängler 2.020
*MX310 (2.721 BC)-Burgäschisee-HapY-R1b-M269- Mit-No coverage-A.Furtwängler et al, 2.020
*Aesch25 (2.682 BC)-Aesch-HapY-R1b-L51/M412/PF6536/S1-Mit-X2b+226-Furtwängler 2.020
*Kromsdorf8-(2.612 BC)-Kromsdorf-Grave 8-HapY- R1b-M343-Mit-I1-Lee et al, 2012-BB culture
It would be interesting to analyze Burgaschisee and Auvernier, because Kurganists do not want to hear about them because their percentage of steppe ancestry is very low. Anthropologically Burgaschisee belongs to the Mediterranean domain-We know that both can be modeled with the iberian chalcolithic
Thanks Nicolas, no wonder you can model Kyndelose with chalcolithic Iberia because Western Neolithic farmers were genetically very similar. I do not know if the Iberians reached Scandinavia or were the British but the truth is that their uniparental markers are identical-For example-Mit Haps-HV0a, V, H1c, K1b1a1
ReplyDeleteMit Hap-K1a2b
K1a2b-Iberia-El Portalón, Atapuerca-ATP3-3.389 BC
Dolmen de Mandubi-Celaya, Guipúzcoa-I7603-HapY-I2a2a-3.200 BC
K1a2b-Sweden, Ansarve-An5-3.315 BC
There is only a difference of 74 years between ATP3 and Ansarve-Archeology also supports this genetic relationship-It may be a coincidence but the Neolithic and Chalcolithic populations were continuously traveling-
+Moving Metals II: Provenancing Scandinavian Bronze Age artefacts by lead isotope and elemental analyses- Johan Ling, Zofia Stos-Gale, Lena Grandin (2.013)."Apart from a steady supply of copper from the Alpine ores in the North Tyrol, the main sources of copper seem to be ores from the Iberian Peninsula and Sardinia"
+Exploring new territories, expanding frontiers, bowmen and prospectors on the Scandinavian peninsula in the third millennium BC-Lene Melheim, Christopher Prescott (2.017)-"On the other hand, the strong genetic evidence for migrations out of south western Europe from 2.800 BC fits well with the initial scenario of a spread of metallurgy from the Iberian peninsula and northwards (Gruppe et al 1,997, Price et al 1.998, Price et al, 2.004, Chenery and Evans 2.011, Brotherton et al 2013, Brandt et al, 2.013, Allentoft et al 2.015, Haak et al 2.015)"
@ Gaska
ReplyDelete''They are too old to be considered Bbs ''
Exactly, because they are proto-BB.
@ Nicolas
You must some day share the methodology of your 'analysis', because it often seems at odds with, both, academic & community analysts
In which way is my 'analysis' at odds with other 'analysis'? I have not seen anyone else ever test the fit from Kyndelose into Bell Beaker, and would be interested to see the results if they did. Everything is only ever matched to Yamnaya, so it is unsurprising that associations with Yamnaya are the only things that are ever 'found'.
Delete@MH_82
ReplyDeleteI don't quite understand what you mean by protobeakers-You mean they are R1b?- I think that all the European male lineages are proto-BB, because the vast majority of them have been found later in that culture- R1b-P312, R1b-V88, I2a, G2a, H2-R1b.P312 is my lineage but I think that it did not monopolize the BB culture at least in the first phase of that culture (2,700-2,400 BC). Later it was evidently imposed on the rest of the western lineages so that the Bronze Age in Iberia, France and the British Isles was overwhelmingly R1b-P312
in any case, the Swiss samples are not CWC either because they do not have grave goods related to that culture nor were they buried according to their custom-Only Asch25 could be considered an intrusive burial, but their mitochondrial lineage has been found in that same dolmen 300 years before (X2b+226) Then at least her mother was a Swiss Neolithic farmer.In other words, the three Swiss R1b-M269 did not come directly from the steppes and were not part of the CWC either because all the samples of that culture analyzed by Furtwängler in Switzerland are I2a.
So the only mystery is to find out why Aesch 25 has 75% CWC ancestry, I suppose it can be modeled in different ways. You are right, everyone has to explain how they model the samples of ancient DNA, but this you also have to apply to Kurganist scientists who try to force models to make everything look more Yamnaya- Olalde did it in 2018 and they have done it Furtwängler, Brunel etc in 2020-
Thanks, Gaska, for the reference to Furtwängler.
ReplyDeleteAs with most studies, it has to be approached with caution:
1. Autosomal profiles in the charts do not always match those in the actual figures
2. yDNA nomenclatures are muddled and sometimes appear inconsistent
3. The geography is sometimes inaccurate
For example:
Auvernier - In supplementary data 4, it is shown as having a WHG component; in the main admixture chart, it is shown as having no WHG component. In supplementary information, its yDNA nomenclature appears to show it as L151 (it is identified as if a great grandparent of L2); but in supplementary data 1, it is shown as V1636 (i.e. on a non-M269 branch of R1b). It is then matched to data from Yamnaya Samara (Caspian Steppe), but this data is described in the text as Pontic.
Unfortunately, in my view, the data in this study does not appear in a sufficiently clear or detailed enough form for us to be able to glean anything significant about Bell Beaker from it. Indeed, the early potentially-M269 samples seem to be the least clear of them all.
ReplyDeleteyes, caution but also mistrust- Furtwängler's paper is an autosomal disaster, and I think they are trying to hide the harsh reality of the nonexistence of yamnaya ancestry in Auvernier and Burgaschisee, simply because that would mean the definitive destruction of the Kurgan theory as interpreted by Harvard and colleagues
Caution on taking their steppe ancestry proportions as accurate-They are using qpAdm in ways that Harney's recent paper would suggest is not the best-They must use prights most informative for the population in question- The result of forcing the model is that more than 15 Neolithic farmers and 16 Iberian BBs have more than 15% of Yamnaya ancestry, some even 48% (Isbister Orkney- 2,980 BC)-SO MX310 and MX304 don`t have that component with almost total security
Furtwängler data-
Auvernier-WHG (4.3%)-ANF (74.3%)- Yamnaya-Samara (21.50%)?????????
Burgaschisee-WHG (0%), ANF 70%, Yamnaya-30% ???????????
We are talking about neolithic farmers- Aesch25-Horgen culture (West Switzerland), Auvernier-Lüscherz culture and Burgaschisse- Cortaillod culture domain which are linked to the Chassean and Lagozzan cultures-What do these cultures have to do with the CWC-Absolutely nothing.In other words, if they were emigrants from the steppes, they lost their autosomal steppe signal and their cultural customs immediately.
@ Nicolas
ReplyDelete''In which way is my 'analysis' at odds with other 'analysis''
I ask with regard to the findings that you've been mentioning - steppe ancestry as early as ~ 3500 BC Castille. I don't think anybody else has found that. If true it would be a big discovery.
What methods did you employ - qpADM, nMonte, Treemix ?
@ Gaska
Well if its any concilation, i agree that BB formed in 'western Europe' (given my theory points me to western Alpine - Rhine area), even if i think they somehow borrowed the idea of arsenical -copper from the steppe.
But I do think BBC was the preseve of R1b-L51 guys from the outset (and im personally not even that Hg, so no bias there :) )
To clarify -
Delete1. I wouldn't identify this genetic addition as steppe ancestry, but as most likely Balkan/Greek ancestry. As the Balkans border the Steppe, there would of course be elements of steppic DNA within it.
2. All of these methods would show approximately the same thing.
3. Olaide 2019 showed Iberia to be shifting steadily towards Eastern Europe genetically between the early Neolithic and the Chalcolithic. His Chalcolithic samples show up to 6% Central European BB/BA-related ancestry; my samples from Atapuerca show a fairly similar amount. (Neither of us tested for Steppe ancestry per se.)
4. The two samples that I referenced showing heavier concentrations of Central European BB/BA-related ancestry (ATP3 and ATP7) were excluded from Olaide's study. If Olaide had included them, I assume they would have shown something similar.
5. I wouldn't really describe early steppic DNA in Western Europe as a big discovery. Western Scandinavian DNA was pretty 'steppic' going right back to the Mesolithic, and a CHG component was present in Anatolia, Greece and the Balkans from the time its people migrated across Europe early in the Neolithic.
I am not sure about BB per se, but lots of different strands of phylogenic analysis suggest that the epicentre of R1b-L51's early expansion (not necessarily its formation) was in the general vicinity of Northern France. It is possible that CBV95 and/or the early Swiss samples were connected to this, but I suspect that L51's extant development started some time before then.
@ Nicolas
ReplyDelete''His Chalcolithic samples show up to 6% Central European BB/BA-related ancestry; my samples from Atapuerca show a fairly similar amount.''
I see, you have unpublished ancient DNA which you tested from Atapuerca. When are they being released ?
'' I wouldn't really describe early steppic DNA in Western Europe as a big discovery. Western Scandinavian DNA was pretty 'steppic' going right back to the Mesolithic, and a CHG component was present in Anatolia, Greece and the Balkans from the time its people migrated across Europe early in the Neolithic.''
Hhmm, that's not really how it works. Mesolithic Scandinavian genomes are completely different to the so-called 'steppe signature'. Yes, they do show some EHG-type admixture , but different kettle of fish, coming from Boreal forests. In anycase, one doubts their relevance to pre-Beaker Iberia.
In answer to your question, I don't know - probably never, like much other ancient DNA.
DeleteI am trying to stick to the topic of the post, but to respond briefly - I think this is how it works. DNA is a mess of masses of admixture going back to the dawn of humanity and involving millions of people who each often migrated large distances over their lifetimes. It is simplistic to try to package DNA into neat boxes, and to test only one thing against one other. The 'steppe signature' is itself an over-simplification dressed up as a generality:
1. It didn't really arise in the Steppe until Yamnaya
2. It also existed off-Steppe (e.g. in the Eastern Baltic)
3. It was not at any time the typical signature of the Western (Pontic) Steppe
4. Within a few hundred years, it had heavily diluted across its entire range
To come back to CBV95, I would be interested to see more detailed DNA data on this. Its published autosomal data is sparse, and its given yDNA status as R1b-M269 is rather unspecific.
CBV95 does look curious. Based on the more detailed reads in the study, he would seem to approximate best to Yamnaya Samara with dashes of Baltic (Latvian, Swedish, Danish). I do not see any substantial resemblance to core Corded Ware, core Bell Beaker or Pontic Steppe DNA. My best estimate would be that he descended mainly from people who migrated up the Volga into the Eastern Baltic and Scandinavia without admixing with any Central Europeans. If so, how he would have ended up in the Paris Basin is anyone's guess.
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