Saturday, February 24, 2018

Origin of Iberian Beakers (Bernard)

Read this post by Bernard "L'origine Ibérique de la culture Campaniforme mise à mal par la génétique".

You may wan to pop that into the Google translate.  Don't get too comfortable with any narrative yet.

There's about four big Beaker papers that just dropped.  It's dump truck season.  I'll try and get to those this evening.


  1. Seems like a reasonable position; given the aDNA and works like Jeneusse

  2. People like bernard should know better.
    things like, Mass Spectrometry (AMS), redating, say for instance in Leceia puts Bell beakers there at ~2800/2700BC, or that the bell beakers in "iberia" were of the Ciempozuelos type, not the first wave, that left from Portugal via Galiza and north spain, not the meseta central.
    But its fine. Its the prevailing narrative. For the time being. we will see in the future.

    1. Yes, I know AMS method for dating. But you have to calibrate the AMS results too and you have the same uncertainty on the calibrated results during third millennium BC. In the example you give for Leceia, dating came from animal bones. How to be sure that the bones are contemporary of the Bell Beaker pottery?

    2. Yes I know AMS. That doesn't change the fact you have to calibrate the dating. You give the example of Leceia. It is interesting. The new calibrated dating from AMS is between 2880 and 2500 BC. As you see, there is a great uncertainty: 380 years. Secondly, the dating is from animal bones. How can you be sure that the Bell beaker pottery and the animal bones are contemporaneous ? May be the Bell Beaker hut was built over the animal bones.

    3. Bernard.
      a. Apply that standard to all other context we know and comment here... and what is left?
      b. AMS in leceia just confirmed all other measurement done in the past. So those in the past were well done. Meaning lets not forget that not many places in Europe have more Bell beakers than Zambujal, leceia and the overall Lisbon area. So, its not one pot.
      c. Most important none of the samples Olalde says are Bell beakers are in fact so. none. However, Olalde has a new sample I6601 in supplement. And he does not call that one bell beaker. He calls it Sw_Iberia_CA. Maybe rightly so. But that new one, contrary to the "has beens thrown in caves" and being called Iberia BB, is found in bolores in the Sizandro river. Meaning From Torres vedras to the Sea its this river and so he even if not necessarily a bell beaker, its from the people that inhabited Zambujal/Sizandro (land of bell shaped beakers per excellence) that in the absence of Proper Portugal bell
      beakers should be looked into....Now, do you think is a coincidence that North Italy proper Bell beakers are being modeled as 50% like him?

  3. Yes there was an older (pre steppe) B.B. phase (Majkop, Usatavo, Remedello). But Iberia still peripheral to it

  4. BBB,
    If you want to read about I6601 try

    These guys in bolores were buried with care (blades, beads, etc).