Just what I needed to illustrate, a bearded guy in the saddle. Spear in one hand, laptop in the other.
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| Beaker Warrior by "Miguel Santos" |
I'm in the process of weighing the benefits of moving Beakerblog to another platform in its seventh year. Blogger is simple and familiar, but it is also no longer supported and years behind in capability.
Both 2018 and 2019 sucked. Hell or high water, I intend to blog more and improve the quality of the content and visual appeal.
Beakerblog is here to stay. Standby for papers...
I haven't left Blogger primarily because it is too cumbersome to migrate my existing posts (currently about 9750 on active blogs and another 100 or so on an inactive one) to a new platform.
ReplyDeleteI need to figure out what I want first. Essentially, it's a blog for recent news and general commentary. But I want a little more whiz bang than I have now. But dumping the current content into another site sounds like a big obstacle, especially with formatting and media.
DeleteNot so much new information recently, but I think we would gain our fastest and deepest understanding of R1b-M269/P312 Beaker people by acknowledging the data that has already been published indicating their earliest genetic inheritance, and considering them within this context.
ReplyDeleteATP3 Northern Spain 3,400BC
yDNA - PF6518 & Y17204 (within Bell Beaker’s R1b-M269 & R1b-P312 respectively)
aDNA - looks wholly Balkan/Greek Chalcolithic, with no Iberian ancestral element
mtDNA - K1a2
Balkan Chalcolithic
I2181 Bulgaria 4,500BC (Steppe-infused)
yDNA - CTS9018 & PF6452 (within ATP3’s R1b-P297 & R1b-M269 respectively)
aDNA - strongest match to ATP3
DM4 Romania 4,150BC (Steppe-culture Suvorovo)
mtDNA - K1a2
Nice comparison. Where are the Balkan Chalcolithic samples from . . . I recognize ATP3.
DeleteAlso, was there not an mtDNA on I2181? It would be rare to get aDNA without mtDNA
Is DM4 an mtDNA only sample? It could be common to get mtDNA without good mtDNA.
I2181 is from Smyadovo, Bulgaria. It's mtDNA is HV15.
DeleteFor DM4, only the mtDNA was published. I was informed a few years ago that the yDNA was about to be published, but it never came.
Suvorovo-Danilovka herders make sense for being P297/M269 but wasn’t ATP3 deemed very low coverage for a confident call? The dating of it is also quite dubious.
DeleteOldest P312 is from Osterhofen I4144/RISE 563 if we’re going by what’s currently published.
To clarify, I'm not saying ATP3 was a Suvorovo herder, although there looks to be some Suvorovo DNA in its mix.
DeleteI am fairly confident in the call of P312, and even more so in the call of M269, as there are no upstream negatives to suggest that these calls are erroneous.
Its dating too looks broadly consistent with other samples seeming to share some of the same DNA (e.g. ATP7, Otzi, Vucedol and Gokhem). In fact, ATP3 is pretty much exactly what you would expect if someone like I2181 Smyadovo had mixed with Greek and Macedonian people of the same era and migrated westwards to Spain.
In order to gain a greater understanding of Bell Beaker this year, I would suggest taking into account all of the available data, rather than disregarding pieces of it that might suggest something a little different.
ReplyDeleteHi Nicolas, Andrew, ATP3 was published by Gunther, Valdiosera (2015) as K1a2b
K1a2b- (Iberia-
El Portalón, Atapuerca-ATP3-HapY-R1b-M269-3.389 AC
Dolmen de Mandubi-Celaya, Guipúzcoa-I7603-Haplogrupo Y-I2a2a-3.200 AC
El Portalón-Por002-3.089 AC
Lloma de Betxi, Bronce Valenciano-I3997- Haplogrupo Y-R1b-Df27-Z195-1.741 AC
K1a2b- Sweden, Ansarve, Neolithic Megalithic culture-An5-3.315 BC
As you will see, it has only been found in megalithic culture (Iberia-Sweden), although I suppose it will appear in France or the British Isles as well.Her brother K1a2a also has Iberian origin COva Bonica Vallirana-CB13-5.398 BC) and it has also been found in Sweden. Then obviously it is a marker that has nothing to do with steppe migrations
To clarify, I am not saying anything about Steppe migrations or the spread of Beaker culture. I am only noting genetic links (yDNA, aDNA and mtDNA) between the earliest sample with a R1b-P312 call and prior populations in Bulgaria and NW Romania, and suggesting this as a possible route to aiding our further understanding.
DeleteI hope you continue publishing this blog for many years-
ReplyDeleteYou may be interested in the BB site of Valle de las Higueras (Huecas, Toledo), in the territory of what you have rightly called the marauders mesetans-The site is interesting because it has
1-Collective neolithic tombs
2-Cave 9 with a single Pre-BB burial (grave goods- flint dagger and ceramic)
3-8 artificial caves with individual, double, and family burials- We have two samples of Mit-Hap typical from the Neolithic -Iberian chalcolithic and we are waiting for the results to be published
The interesting thing about the site is the obvious cultural continuity between the late Neolithic of the Castilian Plateau and the BB period. The BBs buried their dead following the Neolithic customs of the region-
I appreciate, Gaska, and I intend to. There's a lot of awesome papers out right now on the Beakers. Hopefully today, I can get the first on my listed posted.
DeleteI can send you links for you to consult but they are not translated into English- Cave 9 has been interpreted as a natural evolution of customs towards individual burials without the arrival of copper and BB customs
ReplyDeleteYes, absolutely. Also if you have links to pictures if they're not in the paper.
Deletehttps://www.academia.edu/25780531/Enterramientos_individuales_y_enterramientos_colectivos_en_necr%C3%B3polis_del_megalitismo_avanzado_del_interior._La_cueva_9_de_valle_de_las_Higureas._Toledo
Deletehttp://tp.revistas.csic.es/index.php/tp/article/view/69
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303232484_El_campaniforme_en_Toledo_Releyendo_Ciempozuelos
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279475988_Campaniforme_en_las_construcciones_hipogeas_del_Megalitismo_reciente_al_interior_de_la_Peninsula_Iberica
https://www.academia.edu/35586991/Ancestors_Images_as_Marks_of_the_Past_The_Dolmen_of_Azut%C3%A1n_Toledo_Spain_
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHBD_esES779ES779&sxsrf=ACYBGNRZ3tkzfFzog5SbMYTF9kcF9wqH5Q:1580920212940&q=ceramica+ciempozuelos+fotos&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7ntfd6rrnAhURCWMBHdHOBfMQsAR6BAgKEAE&biw=1350&bih=640
https://www.academia.edu/13806511/Las_tumbas_campaniformes_del_monumento_funerario_El_Hundido_Monasterio_de_Rodilla_Burgos_The_bell_beakers_graves_in_the_collective_burial_of_El_Hundido_archaeological_site_Monasterio_de_Rodilla_Burgos_
I hope they serve you something, there are dozens of deposits available.
I appreciate it. I'll be giving these a read soon.
DeleteWe have also reviewed all the deposits of the BB culture (2.700-2.100 BC) that have been genetically analyzed- In 9 deposits with Maritime/International style (Portugal and Spain) we have found 8 I2, 2-R1b-V88 and 1 G2. In 9 sites with Ciempozuelos style (the oldest in a variety called Silos), all men are R1b-P312-As time goes by, other I2a also appears in deposits with Ciempozuelos pottery-
ReplyDeleteThe key is the province of Burgos (North Castilian Plateau), which borders the Basque Country and La Rioja. There has been found ATP3 (Atapuerca-3.400 BC), EHU001 / EHU002-Monasterio de Rodilla (2.434 BC) and I5665 (Dolmen del Virgazal-2,133 BC), all of them R1b-M269
And the big question- If the Ciempozuelos style is unique and exclusive of the Iberian Peninsula, R1b-P312 was a newcomer? They crossed the Pyrenees in small groups and immediately adopted local customs?, they invented the style in situ?Why did they forget their Central European customs?
The oldest site with the Silos/Ciempozuelos style is the Somaén Cave (Soria) dated in 2,620 BC, until now discarded by Spanish archaeologists for its excessive antiquity and now recovered because the Ciempozuelos deposits are increasingly older.
How can you explain that almost simultaneously R1b-P312 appears in France (AOC pottery, Grand Pressigny daggers), Bavaria (BB pottery) and Spain (Ciempozuelos pottery, wristguards, V perforated buttons Palmela points and copper dagger) - The answer seems obvious
Apparently the word on eurogenes is that there are unpublished M269 positive calls that have been found in several SS forest steppe samples.
ReplyDelete2020 is going to be an exiting year.
We hope, although yfull's estimated formation date for M269 is 11,300 BC, so these M269 calls might tell us very little about Bell Beaker.
DeleteYeah, you said.... "apparently" One thing is what you want and another reality, Kurganists have been trying to fool everyone for years
ReplyDeleteI guess you'll know what a bottleneck is, M269 has nothing to do with steppes, just fairy tales.
In case of finding something, its origin is in Central Europe, the Balkans or the Baltic countries.
The only important thing for BB culture is P312 and this lineage is absolutely western, it has nothing to do with the steppes.
Yes 2020 is going to be an exiting year, because many Kurganist fans like you who don't understand absolutely nothing about genetics are going to have to apologize publicly-Understanding BB culture is an intellectual challenge that is very difficult to solve, but we are sure of one thing, it has absolutely nothing to do with the steppes, Ukraine, SS, Khvalynsk, or the CWC-
Oh dear, it seems I’ve deeply upset the local troll with his fairy tales about how L51/P312 and steppe DNA arriving in Western Europe simultaneously have nothing at all to do with each other and are simply pure coincidence am I right Gaska? ;)
DeleteCentral Europe? Where exactly in Central Europe? In your head maybe. Nothing in kunda or Narva either which didn’t show any calls downstream of M269 if the now MIA genetiker is anything to go by. Nor would I be gambling my life on baden either. Those balkan BA samples are simply too devoid of WHG to have contributed anything to BBC.
And it’s definitely not from any LBK offshoot population that’s for sure, so that narrows it down to the forest steppe I’m afraid! Best to use Occam’s razor in these instances.
Even when those sredni stog Y-SNPs are published BAM files and all you’ll resort to your usual insane conspiracy theory spiel crying about “muh kurganist” agenda like the utter sperg you are, and I look forward to seeing your future meltdowns here and on David’s blog. You’re a good source of amusement for those of us on AG that actually take this field seriously.
Speaking of bell beaker. Why are all those steppeless beaker samples completely lacking in anything L51/P312 related? And before you bring up ATP3, it’s a low res garbage sample that belongs in the garbage along with your little pet theory of baltic/balkan origin or wherever it is you believe L51 came from. Why is the low coverage weirdly dated ATP3 worth mentioning and the DF27 sample from Quedlinburg not? Confirmation bias much?
Despite L51 being homologous with Z2103 which you probably don’t believe is from the steppe either? God forbid anything comes from there. TMRCA estimates for L51 simply makes SSII the most likely progenitor.
Those baltic hunter fishers got completely assimilated by incoming CWC guys and their lines went extinct just like all your precious chalcolithic “bell beaker” ancestors which you claim total untainted continuity from in some vain ethnic chauvinism.
Word of advice amigo, find another hobby. Because population genetics is not the one for you.
You remind me those provocative trolling admins at Anthrogenica, these guys dont care about the truth, when it doesnt fit their agenda, they start cursing or banning the person they are discussing with-This is not related to any kind of a civilized scientific discussion”.Quit acting like a total moron and try checking the facts a little before putting out an idiotic answer-
DeleteYou and your "Anthrogenica" friends have made the biggest ridicule I've ever seen. You have been saying for 5 years that the origin of R1b-L51 and BB culture was the Yamnaya culture with the excuse that there is their relative Z2103- After the disaster of recognizing that Yamnaya does not mean anything, you are desperately looking for alternatives to this embarrassing failure (S-Stog, Khvalynsk, CWC etc......)-Not only do you absolutely not know the chalcolithic of Western Europe, you also have no idea what the BB culture was- R1b is a typical lineage of WHgs from the Epigravettian and you can find it in Italy, France, Iberia, Germany, Norway (VK531 -zero steppe ancestry), Baltic Countries, Bulgaria, Romania etc. Pretending that M269 and L51 have their origin in the steppes is an unprecedented stupidity and the more you insist on saying it, the greater the ridicule will be.
"Amigo"-Ha Ha Ha, you're not my friend, and if I had to continue accepting your advice now I would be thinking that the courageous Yamnaya riders conquered Europe, invented the BB culture, metallurgy, individual burials, the wheel, and all those nonsense that you have been repeating as parrots for years - Your theory is BS and time has shown who was right. Now keep looking at Sredni Stog, many genomes of that culture have already been published, I recommend you study them again. So far they have only found R1a, R1b-V88, and I2a2a1b. L51? only in your dreams-SS has evidence of inhumation in flat graves (ground level pits), like the Cucuteni culture and in contrast with the Yamnaya Culture which practiced tumuli burials
Regarding ATP3 and Quedlinburg Df27, your lies in anthrogenica and other forums only try to eliminate Iberia from the discussion, but the manipulation and the lie are so obvious that just mentioning it means that your credibility is zero. People deserve to know the truth-
DeleteYes, Atp3, like many other ancient genomes, has low coverage, but enough to trace its path to R1b-M269 without any doubt
GHIJK equivalent M3773/CTS12673 [Y-28,664,607 C>T] is the first in the series ATP3's SNPs leading to R1b-M269-PF6518
K-M9- PF5501/M2693/CTS9278 [Y-18795682 C>T]
R1b-M478- ATP3 is positive for the R1 equivalent SNP M748/YSC0000207 [Y-19,045,552 C>T].
ATP3 is derived for the R1b1a-P297 equivalent Y97/FGC46/Z8144 [Y-4,646,572 T>G].
R1b1a/2-M269: PF6518. Marker PF6518 (Y: 23,099,729 A-C)
As I am not a fortune teller, as long as no more samples of R1b-M269 are found in Western Europe we will not be able to know if this is a dead line or if they left descendants, but in any case, the sample is clearly M269, with which to explain the presence of this lineage in western europe we don't need steppes at all. Do you get it?
Regarding Quedlinburg, it has not found a single SNP downstream Df27. You think it is right to discard ATP3 from the scientific discussion when at least it has typical SNPs under P297 and M269 and yet consider this sample as Df27? - This simply means that the theory of the steppes as they are interpreting it is a fallacy-
1-I8561- Isnello- Sicily (2.272 BC)- Hap Y-R1b-Df27-Z195- Mit Hap-K1b1+16093-This is the oldest known sample of this marker in Europe
2-In the event that Quedlinburg was Df27 (which is not), it would be more modern- Look at this-I0806 has appeared in different papers with differerent dates- The first date is uncalibrated, so does not reflect the real dates. The 2-sigma calibrated dates are the refined ones the take different variables into account. It looks like it was 2-sigma calibrated after each of the full sequences, so since the Haak one has less variability, I would say it is closer to the actual date, but we cannot be too sure without the probability graphs that come with radiocarbon reports
Brotherton et al (2.013)-3.839±55 (Erl8558)-Uncalibrated
Haak et al (2.015) (2.296-2.206 BCE)- (MAMS 22820) Date 2-sigma- 2.251 AC
Mathieson et al (2.015) (2.431-2.150 BCE)- (MAMS 22820) Date 2-sigma- 2.290 AC
That is, Quedlinburg I0806 is dated-2,251 BC and Isnello in 2,272 BC, ergo Isnello is the oldest. Do you get it?
How can we interpret this? - Ignorance, conspirace, prejudice, disability, biased behavior or simply lies? And stop talking about nationalism (this only means that you have no arguments) I am not Sicilian but Basque-Spaniard
ReplyDeleteNicolas I didn't know anything about Smyadovo-I2181, until Arza commented on this sample in eurogenes (for me it was simply R1b). We now know that it is R1b-P297 as the Latvian hunter gatherers of the Narva culture (I am not sure of its M269 markers)
Regarding the Bb culture Iberia and other European regions, have shown that no one can link this culture to a unique male lineage. Everything is much more complicated than Harvard is saying
and I'm glad to see you mention those cases of M269 outside the steppes without paying attention to Kurganist dogma
More significant is that Smyadovo I2181 is positive for a SNP within M269, is negative for Z2103 and has a DNA profile that is represented in the mixes of subsequent samples scattered over a very wide geographical area. It is cut from the same cloth as ATP3, both in terms of its yDNA and aDNA, and the expansion of its DNA profile seems to mirror that of Bell Beaker some centuries later.
DeleteWhat I am suggesting is that, to better understand the roots of P312 Beaker people, we perhaps should look where the genetic data already points - that is, across the breadth of Southern Europe.
DeleteThat is exactly what I think because I fail to understand how M269 could be imprisoned in the steppes for 8,000 years. The important thing is not to close the door to any explanation whatever the final result, and of course have enough capacity to doubt the steppe dogma that they have tried to impose on us without convincing evidence.